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Post by rpcarpe on Mar 15, 2010 8:18:42 GMT -6
Just held our District race on Saturday. Top four finishers were disqualified because the Dads used a water/graphite mixture to lube the wheel bore. This created a semi-permanent graphite bushing and violated the 'no bushing' and 'no liquid lubricant' rules.
Any opinions??
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Post by 2borggold on Mar 15, 2010 9:46:53 GMT -6
I don't know... Tough call. Was the mixture still wet at check in time? If so, I can see the No Liquid violation. Our pack rules say we can polish the axles but not change the shape of the axle. If you coat the axle with something that makes it a larger diameter (ie, semipermanent graphite bushing) it violates that rule. I think you could argue for both sides on this one......
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Art Racing
Pine Head
Life's a hole dig it!
Posts: 57
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Post by Art Racing on Mar 15, 2010 11:25:55 GMT -6
IF IT WAS STILL WET I COULD SEE GETTING DQ'D BUT IF NOT THEN EVERYONE USING GRAPHITE COULD OF BEEN DQ'D IF THEY HAD TO MUCH IN THERE WHEELS.
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Post by rpcarpe on Mar 15, 2010 12:59:38 GMT -6
I was not the DQ'er. But one of the Dads had two sons/cars, used the same trick last year at Council races, was told by District Derby Chairman to NOT do it this year. Saddest thing is the kids had no idea what lube process their Dads did and why it DQ'd them. Followup meeting with District Exec is tomorrow, hopefully we can get something positive out of all this.
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Post by 2borggold on Mar 15, 2010 16:11:07 GMT -6
Be intresting to hear what the DE says. In our district, the race is hosted by a different Pack each year. In the past, the hosting Pack sets the rules. Generally they are close, but differences do occur. If Pack "A" interprets a rule differently than Pack "B", they may see an infraction where someone else may not.... Keep us posted.
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psycaz
Addicted to Speed
Posts: 86
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Post by psycaz on Mar 15, 2010 19:46:22 GMT -6
Anyone got more details on this process? I would love to test it at home to see if it really makes a difference.
TIA
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Post by rpcarpe on Mar 16, 2010 7:02:10 GMT -6
I'll get the details on the process from the PWD Chairman that DQ'd the cars. We meet tonight, so I'll post it tomorrow. I'm hoping this will be an opportunity to simplify our 4 pages of District rules. 'Educate and innovate, don't legislate'.
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Post by DrT1010 on Mar 16, 2010 14:46:25 GMT -6
rp, You must be from a certain district in Alabama?
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Post by rpcarpe on Mar 16, 2010 22:33:34 GMT -6
Yup! I was the Pit master for the morning and Starter for the races.
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Post by Go Bubba Go on Mar 16, 2010 22:50:32 GMT -6
Top 4 finishers?
So they were disqualified after they passed inspection and then ran?
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Post by rpcarpe on Mar 17, 2010 7:31:44 GMT -6
Yes, the top 4 finishers were re-inspected post-race when their times/speeds were well above the rest of the cars. Re-inspection included pulling off the axles/wheels and asking the racers how they lubed their cars. Closer review of the results showed top 5 finishers were suspect. These top five cars ran amazingly consistent FAST times with very little slow down or speed up due to changes in lubrication during their four runs. Update: Follow-up meeting will not happen until NEXT Tuesday. I'll try to duplicate the process so far as I understand it. I'll put results of the experiment here as well as what happens from the follow-up meeting.
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Post by DrT1010 on Mar 17, 2010 11:38:21 GMT -6
Top 4 finishers? So they were disqualified after they passed inspection and then ran? Bubba, You may recall Teeman (Terry) from DT, it's his district. You may also recall the rules there were a bit....err punitive and strictly enforced. Including post race tear down if in the eyes of the Derby Chair (?) cars are too fast! Please correct me rp if I have misinterpreted.
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Post by DrT1010 on Mar 17, 2010 11:48:17 GMT -6
Anyone got more details on this process? I would love to test it at home to see if it really makes a difference. TIA From what I gather, it's Doc Jobes method where he uses his oil and graphite to form pads or clumps inside bore.
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Post by rpcarpe on Mar 17, 2010 12:57:48 GMT -6
All Y'all, I haven't read Doc Jobe's book yet, just the website. All I know is 'water and graphite mixture to form graphite bushings'. I'll start trying it tonight and post results.
Yes DrT, the rules (all four pages of them) were IMHO strict. Kids that glued that axles in crooked, got sent to my PIT table to get them set in straight, concave wheels (out of the box) had to be replaced etc...
Yes, the Derby Chair supervised all the check-in, and did the post-race tear down on cars that ran abnormally fast. The District Exec was with him for the whole post-race inspection.
We tested 8 Dad's experimental (but legal) cars on this very smooth aluminum track so we had a good basis for comparison. When questioned post-race, the Cubs had no clue and the Dad's admitted/explained their methods.
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Post by desmoryder on Mar 22, 2010 11:01:02 GMT -6
As the Cub Dad for 2 of the cars that were disqualified, I felt compelled to post a response. This is abbreviated copy of the one sent to the District Pinewood Derby Committee. I appreciate those on this forum that seek the truth about the actual technical aspects of wheel bore prep. I know this is a bit long winded, but maybe this will shed some light on the discussion.
There is a lot of misinformation floating around concerning the events leading up the disqualification of my son’s cars at the 2010 Talakto District Derby so I felt compelled to write this letter. I feel confident that the Takakto District Pinewood Derby committee members seek the truth and facts on which to base their decisions not opinion and hearsay. I will do my best to accurately describe the event leading up to the disqualification of my sons’ cars.
It is my belief that my sons’ cars were prepared within the district rules that cover the preparation of wheel and axles.
2010 Talakto District Rules (affecting the wheels and axles): • Wheel bearings, washers, bushings and wheel spacers are prohibited. • Only dry lubricant, such as Graphite, Graphite/Moly or Cub Scout Teflon Powder, may be used to lubricate the wheels. The use of liquid lubricants of any type is strictly prohibited. • Wheel bores may be polished but may not be enlarged, pocketed or grooved in any fashion. Minor wheel bore diameter increase resultant of sanding, polishing, burnishing or wheel break-in is permissible. • Axles may be de-burred and polished. They may not be altered to significantly reduce their diameter or to make grooves.
Wheel and axle preparation methods used on the cars: The wheels and axles were prepared using materials and methods that to the best of our knowledge followed the 2010 Talakto Pinewood Derby District rules. Each of the boys’ cars was prepared in a similar manner as follows:
• No bushings of any type were added the cars. (It should have been obvious to the race officials that no bushings were present on the car). • The Axles were prepared using varying fine “grits” of fine sandpaper then polished with a metal polish. The axles were then cleaned using a cotton swab and isopropyl alcohol and allowed to dry. (Axle polishing is allowed in District rules) • The Wheel Bores were polished using a fine abrasive plastic polish then rinsed with water and allowed to dry. (Wheel polishing allowed in District rules) • Dry Powdered Graphite (Max V-Lube) was initially applied to the wheel bores using a pipe cleaner mounted and spun on a drill. Additional graphite was applied by squeezing the tube and “puffing” the graphite into the wheel bores. The technical specifications describe Max V-Lube as “a proprietary blend of high-purity natural flake graphite...” (The District Rules allow the use of graphite) • The wheels and axles were believed to be dry when the graphite was applied • No liquid of any type was added to the wheels or axles after application of the graphite. • The car was subjected to multiple test runs on a wooden track with additional dry graphite being applied at numerous times by squeezing the tube and “puffing” the graphite into the wheel bores • Also note that one wheel was slightly raised and did not touch the track thus was subjected to a minimal amount of rotation on the axle
From discussions with other derby participants, these are common legal methods used to prepare wheels and axles.
Additional information leading up to the 2010 District Race: The boys’ competed in the 2009 District race and my son Evan’s car finished in 17th (one of the top finishing Tigers). We were pretty excited at a 17th place finish our first year out. Several weeks after the District race we received a letter stating Evan’s car qualified for the Greater Alabama Council Race. Evan was excited about being able to compete at the Council race. I knew, however, that at 17th the car would not be competitive at the council race. We obtained access to a track and conducted numerous test runs. Adjustments were made to the car's alignment during the testing. The track had no timer, but by using another car as a baseline we knew the car was faster than it started out. Note: No changes were made to the wheel lubrication other than the application of additional DRY graphite in between runs by "puffing the graphite into the wheel bores. I mention this only because I was asked how was it possible for the car to finish 2nd in the (2009) Council race after finishing 17th in the District race.
We then entered the 2009 Greater Alabama Council race. At the end of the race several of the cub families were called up front and a post race inspection was conducted on the cars by race officials. The race officials informed us that Evan’s car was legal and congratulated us on building a fast car. Note: Several other cars were disqualified for various reasons, but not Evan’s. Evan received the 2nd place trophy and was obviously elated.
Now, it's time for the 2010 District race and I am helping the committee set up for the race on the Friday night before the race. I overheard one of the Derby committee members make the statement “The top 4 cars at the (Greater Alabama) Council race used oil”. I immediately became concerned about this statement because the use of oil is illegal and my son's car finished in the top 4 at that race and oil was not used on his car. I spoke up and told him that that my son’s car was in the top 4 and it did not use oil. He said “yes it did, I said “no it didn’t, I should know I helped him build it”. The race official said “It was illegal”. I asked him that if the car was illegal, why were we told by race officials (after a post-race teardown and inspection) that the car was legal? He said “It was illegal”. I asked how was it illegal? He said “Come on, you know what you did”. I said “no I don’t”. He then said something about using oil to create "graphite pads". I was not familiar with the term “graphite pad” but I knew that no oil was used on the car and told him “we didn’t use oil”. He then said that if the cars for this year were prepared like last year, I should work on the cars and fix them before the race. I told him that the cars were prepared similar to the car from last year, but that I saw no reason to change anything on the cars because to the best of my knowledge (and based upon the results of the inspection of Evan’s car after the 2009 Council Race) the cars were legal. At no time did he indicate which of the District rule(s) if any may have been broken. When asked what rules were broken he only stated “Come on, you know what you did”.
At this point I had no confidence in what the race official was telling me because of the conflicting and incoherent statements being made because:
1. I helped my son build the car and knew for a fact that no oil was used on the car. 2. After the 2009 Council Race my son’s car was taken apart and a post race inspection was performed by race officials. We were told by the race officials that the car was legal and were then congratulated on building a fast car. (From what I remember the Council rules are similar to the District rules)
Again, I saw no reason to change anything on the cars because to the best of my knowledge they were prepared within the 2010 Talakto District Pinewood Derby rules. I thought that maybe the race official had my sons’ cars confused with someone else’s.
Upon completion of the 2010 Talakto District race my son’s cars were among several that were subjected to a post race inspection. The cars were inspected by the race official and we were told that the cars were disqualified. I asked why and which rules did we break and was told:
1. "You created a “bushing” (in the wheel) 2. "You created “Graphite Pads” (inside the wheel hub) The only definitions for a bushing that I am familiar with are similar to the following:
Bushing: 1. Metal Sleeve - U.S. engineering, a cylindrical metal sleeve used to prevent abrasion, as a bearing, or as a guide for tool parts such as valve rods 2. Insulation - a layer of electrical insulation that allows a live conductor to pass through a grounded wall 3. Pipe adapter - an adaptor or screw-piece for connecting two different sizes of pipe
There is nothing on the cars that resemble anything close to a bushing.
I asked the race official what a graphite pad was. He then produced an illustration (not an actual photo) in a book of what I believe was a surface treated with dry powdered graphite another one treated with something else (I believe he said with graphite and oil and/or water). He said that that our wheel bores looked like the illustration of the one treated with something other than dry powdered graphite, and was thus illegal. I asked the official how do you make a graphite pad and was again told “Come on You know what you did" (he said this several times).
I told the race official that the boys’ cars used only dry powdered graphite as a lubricant. I told him that we polished the axles and polished the wheel bores and I offered to explain our preparation process. He said “I don’t want to hear it. You know what you did. You are the worst” and told us that my sons’ cars were disqualified.
Again I asked what rule did we break? The only answer I could get was that “I made a bushing” and “Come on, you know what you did” and “You are the worst”. Each time I inquired about the “graphite pads” and how do you make them, I was told “Come on, you know what you did. You are the worst”
I find the bullying “Gestapo-like” attitude of this race official very disturbing. If there was a legitimate problem with the cars, why was there a need for all the secrecy and innuendo? Why not simply state which rule that was broken in a clear concise manner? While he never said the words he basically accused me of intentionally cheating and lying.
After the race I began to do some research into the properties of graphite and to find information on these mysterious "graphite pads". I consulted with Randy Davis at Maximum-Velocity (who is the supplier of the Max V-Lube graphite) to try to get some answers. I explained the preparation methods used on our cars and the actions of the race official and he said the actions of the race official seemed “off base”. He went on to describe the properties of that Max V-Lube: A high purity dry powdered graphite that is 99.9% carbon with a medium (200 mesh/75 micron) particle size. He noted that Max V-Lube has a larger particle size than some other common graphite brands such as Tube-O-Lube which has a particle size of 44 microns. Also, Tube-O-Lube has a carbon content of approximately 95 % vs. 99.9% for the Max V-Lube. He said that tests have shown that Max V-Lube, with its high purity carbon, larger particle size, and more coarse consistency, produces faster times than Tube-O-Lube. I asked if Dry Max V-lube was capable of forming clumps without the addition of any type of oil or liquid. He said that that dry Max V-Lube could form clumps without the introduction of any liquid.
From all the research that I have done, the lubrication properties of graphite are diminished by the addition of oil, grease, or any other liquid and thus would not be desirable. (Randy also confirmed this). Based on this information I made a reasonable effort to make sure there was no water or residue left in the wheel bores after the polishing and cleaning process. There is always the possibility that some moisture or contamination remained. If so, it was definitely not intentional and was likely a very small amount. Maybe I should have examined the wheel bores under magnification or conducted some type of contamination test, but this would seem a bit excessive.
If the graphite in the wheel bores did indeed exhibit properties different than other dry graphite I would reason that it might be due to the following:
1. Max V-Lube has a different appearance than some other brands of graphite due to particle size and higher carbon content 2. Residue from the wheel polishing procedure was left inside the wheel bores and mixed with the graphite (even if this did occur, the graphite was still dry at the time of the race).
I currently have the wheels from the cars stored in a plastic bag (the wheel bores have not been touched since the race). In hindsight I wish I would have had one of the officials impound the wheels so they could be examined by an impartial 3rd party with knowledge of the properties of graphite. The wheels are available for committee members to inspect.
Based on the course of events at the 2010 District Pinewood Derby I believe that my sons’ cars (and possibly some cars from other participants) were unjustly disqualified. I think it should be the responsibility of the committee to make sure the rules more clearly define the requirements and can be clearly interpreted by the participants and judges alike. The rules should clearly define what is permitted and what is not permitted. For example if “Graphite Pads” are not permitted, then define what a “Graphite Pad” is and LIST IT IN THE RULES, do not keep it a secret! Hopefully with some changes and improvements to the rules and judging criteria, next year’s Pinewood can be a positive experience for every Cub family involved. - Frank
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tkp
Pine Head
Posts: 65
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Post by tkp on Mar 23, 2010 13:56:50 GMT -6
Hmmmm.....if it was just one car/wheel, I could POTENTIALLY see an error, moisture remaining (water, alcohol, oil etc)...however,
If both cars/all wheels, had these characteristics- seems suspect to me or the builder simply did the same method for both cars/bores.
Question- was the inspector able to get inside the bore-say with a qtip or kleenex etc to see if any oil or color was present?
IF color- then "suspect" for oil. But you would still need to have liqiud proof. If no oil or color or visible water/liquids etc then chances are I would let it go. We could go around for hours on what potential legal and non-legal methods could produce these clumps.
Again, at the end of the day, if color or visible liquid is present- car is suspect and chance for DQ. If no color or visible liquid- not sure that you have enough evidence to DQ. Just my two cents....
Lastly, would recommend that you only conduct pre-inspections, modify rules from this experience if needed and be ready for a tool next year that can get inside bores- if you have to go that far.
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Post by rpcarpe on Mar 23, 2010 19:37:30 GMT -6
Good news! We finally got to hold the meeting. The results stand as they are. The final decision was with the District Executive and good or bad, it's done. The Council stands behind him and so does the PWD commitee. Better news! The rules are getting an overhaul. Simpler, better should result in faster cars, and easier inspections. I currently have the wheels from the cars stored in a plastic bag (the wheel bores have not been touched since the race). In hindsight I wish I would have had one of the officials impound the wheels so they could be examined by an impartial 3rd party with knowledge of the properties of graphite. The wheels are available for committee members to inspect. I personally looked at the 8 wheels, the first thing I noticed was that they are the 1999 wheels. The differences are explained at www.derbychamp.com/v/vspfiles/2009BSAWheels.htmand pinewoodderbyphysics.com/pdf%20files/Lecture%2026.pdfwhich shows a 1/4 car length improvement with new wheels (all else being equal) on a 32' track. We raced on a 48' Freedom track, 2009 wheels should have given everyone else an advantage, all else being equal. My own work with water and graphite did not yield any clumping like the inspector saw. But I only spun in the graphite/water by hand. And there was no appreciable difference in a Spin Test.
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Post by derbydad4hire on Apr 5, 2010 0:16:21 GMT -6
LOL, Teeman. Even funnier... graphite bushing! Still scratching my head on the no oil rules. If it appears dry then what is the problem? The bottom line is, if you are too fast then you are a CHEATER!
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beakerboysracing
Head in the Pine
You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't flick your friends across the room.
Posts: 167
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Post by beakerboysracing on Apr 8, 2010 14:54:43 GMT -6
let me guess, the race officials who DQ'ed the top 4 cars had sons in the race who finished 5 place down?
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Art Racing
Pine Head
Life's a hole dig it!
Posts: 57
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Post by Art Racing on Apr 8, 2010 15:34:41 GMT -6
THAT SOUNDS ABOUT RIGHT ;D
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