Lube Question for the experts

[tryingforspeed]

I posted a question the other day in this category postings, as to if anybody had ever used Seymour Paints Dry Graphite Lube. So far I've heard no replies. I guess I should elaborate on my idea.

I've seen advertised "speed wheels" where they have some sort of special graphite coating applied to the outer hub area and to the inner wheel edge. Sometimes even to the wheel outer surface.
I've also noticed when looking under pinewood derby car building on Wikipedia, that there is a photo of an axle that has been treated with some sort of graphite coating.

So the question came to mind, is this special wheel treatment just a spray coating of Seymour Paints Dry Graphite Lube, or any other similar product?
If so, then why isn't everybody doing this themselves as a standard 'speed trick'?
Also, why not just coat the axles as well?

I understand by reading the info on this product (link on earlier post) that it leaves a thin coat of dry graphite on the surface of whatever you spray it on. It seemed to me that if it's considered a dry graphite, and it doesn't fall off, then that would be the best thing we could all hope to find for a lube application.

Am I on to something here or has this sort of 'thing' been explored by any one of the experts out there?

I'm building my car this week so I hope someone can respond soon.

By the way, Race X, if you read this, I want to thank you for your response to an earlier question that you had answered quite well for me. And as a kudos, I have several of the Derbyworx tools and find them a 'must' when building a winning car.

Thanks in advance for your insight on this lube.

[Derby Worx Pro Team]

I would not use that product on the wheels because of the Butane Propellant in the spray and the Styrene plastic of the wheels.

Styrene will Melt when you hit it with Butane.

I think the coating that you are seeing is just rubbed in graphite which will leave the "Shine" that you are seeing.

[ProQuest]

Greetings Tryingforspeed:

I'm not the resident expert, but I'll chime in with my 2 cents worth.

First, in my experience, graphite doesn't need much help adhering to just about anything it gets on -- including pinewood derby wheels. Just rub a little on something you don't want it to get on to prove this point. In fact, some experts will tell you that once you have used graphite to lubricate your wheels, don't ever attempt to switch to any sort of wet lube (i.e. oil) as oil and graphite generally do not mix, and you will never fully be able to remove all the graphite from the wheel once you have applied it. (Personally, I'm not entirely convinced that the graphite can not EVER be removed sufficiently to switch to oil, but let's just say it is a lot of work to do so).

As far as the graphite coating on the exterior of the wheel goes, that is easily done by simply applying a few puffs of graphite to a paper plate, then rotating the wheels in the small pile of graphite. Like Racer X said, it will leave a very shinny coat on the tread. Once the graphite spreads around the plate I use a small paint brush to gather it back into a pile. To be honest, I'm not sure of the benefits of graphiting the tread -- I get why you'd want to graphite the wheel edge and hub, but the tread I don't quite get -- but one of the best builders ever told me to do it, so I do.

Coating axles in graphite is a fine idea. But graphite does not adhere so readily to axles which typically are either zinc or nickel plated. I put a little graphite on a Popsicle stick and then roll the axle back and forth in the graphite on the stick. Does it work? Heck, I don't know, but its the best method I could come up with. There is a company that makes graphite plated axles. They actually plate the axles in graphite much like you would plate an axle with zinc or nickel. I don't know how it is done or whether it works. You might give that a try. You can find them on the Internet. Maybe someone else can identify the vendor by name, I just can't think of it now.

As far as whether the spray would work -- if Racer X says it would melt the wheels, then it would probably melt the wheels. But I'd say, give it a try, what have you got to lose except a $3.50 set of wheel, that is assuming you are experimenting on a stock set that you didn't buy after market for way more. If it works you are on to something, that judging from the lack of response on the board, no one else seems to have tried -- including me.

Good luck,

ProQuest/Steve H.

[tryingforspeed]

Hi Derby Worx Pro Team,
Your point with the Butane and plastic melting is well taken. OK, well what would you think about coating the nails? Once the butane evaporates and leaves a dry coating on the nail, do you think the plastic wheel could still be affected?
One last thought, there is the side of the wood block where the wheel hub would rub. I've seen graphite disks that can be used on the block. Do you think this coating would have any adverse effects to the wheels if applied to this part of the block??
Thanks for your thoughts in advance.

[Lucky 13]

tryingforspeed said:

Hi Derby Worx Pro Team,
Your point with the Butane and plastic melting is well taken. OK, well what would you think about coating the nails? Once the butane evaporates and leaves a dry coating on the nail, do you think the plastic wheel could still be affected?
One last thought, there is the side of the wood block where the wheel hub would rub. I've seen graphite disks that can be used on the block. Do you think this coating would have any adverse effects to the wheels if applied to this part of the block??
Thanks for your thoughts in advance.

I think you would be ok with coating the axles and letting them dry before you use them. I'm with ProQuest, I'd try them on a stock set of wheels first, just in case things don't work out. It's a lot easier on the wallet to melt down a set of stock wheels than a $20-$30 dollar set of after market !!
If you try the lube on the axles let us know how it works out. A lot of the fun with pinewood racing is the experimenting you can do to find the things that work and those that don't !!

Lucky 13

[Derby Worx Pro Team]

tryingforspeed said:

Hi Derby Worx Pro Team,
Your point with the Butane and plastic melting is well taken. OK, well what would you think about coating the nails? Once the butane evaporates and leaves a dry coating on the nail, do you think the plastic wheel could still be affected?
One last thought, there is the side of the wood block where the wheel hub would rub. I've seen graphite disks that can be used on the block. Do you think this coating would have any adverse effects to the wheels if applied to this part of the block??
Thanks for your thoughts in advance.

The butane will evaporate after a period of time because it is only the carrier in the spray so I would not see any adverse effects in using it on the axles provided that the coating is done well prior to mounting them on the wheels.

It probably would not adversely effect the wheels if done properly but i would like to give caution that the propellant in the spray might mess up your paint. I you are wanting to only do the small areas where the wheels might touch then i would definately mask off such that only those areas are showing.

[sporty]

I recenty got some paint on graphite lube. I am just playing around with it for now. but you can apply to axle and it dries fast, excess seems to be a issue. So I have played around with polishing with as micro fiber cloth and it removes the excess and gets shiny.

But its not been put onto the track yet. I posted the link at derby talk. for those who want to try it.

[Parrot Racing]

Tryingforspeed, I use a similar method as Proquest described, I have a small block of wood about half inch or so and I carved a v-shaped notch in it. Then I will mix small amount of denatured alcohol with my graphite and make a thick paste. Apply some to a small piece of micro-fiber cloth and put it in the notch, then just roll your axle back and forth in the notch.

I also use this mixture of alcohol and grahite to pack the wheel bore, then use a drill blank to roll the wheel in the same direction it will be spinning on the car.
Not sure if any of this works, but it's how I do it.
We have our scout race this saturday.
Good Luck.

Enrico

[Sappington R]

Tryingforspeed,

Excellent information has been provided already by Proquest & Enrico. In my search and discovery to optimize axle & wheel lubrication I stumbled across an interesting website that has a step by step description with pictures and video of a very detailed polishing and lubrication technique:

www.pinewoodderbyphysics.com/pdf%20files/Lecture%2016.pdf

A few key take aways for me:

1. Polish and re-polish and use a magnifying glass to check your work.

2. Soak your axles in isopropyl alcohol or denatured until it is time to apply graphite. The reasoning is that you don't want them exposed to air which will cause oxidization and hinder the ability of the small graphite molecules to bind to the metal surface. The author describes the physics in detail (way over my head) about how you are trying to create a "monomolecular film" on the axle surface.

3. Once they are completely lubed and ready to place in the wheels, avoid handling as much as possible and throughout the remainder of your preparation process; protect them an keep them clean. We used plastic zip loc baggies for this.

I hope this link helps you learn more. Good luck racing!

Sappington

[ProQuest]

Hey Tryingforspeed/Everyone:

In a post yesterday I mentioned a graphite coated axle, but couldn't remember the company that makes them. Just now I saw a post in which a link is provided to the exact axle I mentioned. Here it is:

www.abc-pinewood-derby.com/axles.htm

Haven't tried them, but thinking about it. They might not be legal for cub scout races in packs with strict rules, as they clearly are modified. Of course you could always argue that the graphite plating is merely lubrication, but it is an argument you may have to make, and may not win. Having said that, sure would be interesting to try.

ProQuest/Steve H.

[tryingforspeed]

Everyone who has responded,

Thanks for some good ideas and information. I've checked out the two links above on graphite treating your axles and the one showing the graphite treated axles. Really good stuff to read.

Well to add to the mix of things that "could" work, I went ahead and picked up some of that graphite lube 'paint' that I mentioned. I just had to check it out.
So I sprayed it on a nail, a piece of pine, and a plastic knife (because I didn't have a sacrificial wheel). To the touch, the surface does 'feel' smoother than without the coating. I looked at it under a 15x microscope and the coating did look quite bumpy and uneven. I gave it a scratch test with my fingernail and it can be scratched off of the nail and the plastic knife. My feeling at this point is that I think I will use it to coat the block where the wheel hub might contact. It seemed to adhere to the wood much better.
I haven't tried polishing the nail with graphite after coating with this spray, but I may try that later on.
For me, right now I have just this one car to build with my son and race next week. The first time I can run this car is at the race itself.
What I really need is a track at home so that I can do some of these experiments!
I've already spend a few hundred $ on tools this past year. I think I'm getting more hooked on this than my scout! Next year I will have two boys to help with cars. I'm thinking that then I may invest in a single lane track for the basement that we can then use to time our experiments with.

Thanks again to all that responded, and please continue this discussion if there is more out there to learn or if anyone actually has some new experimental data with this, they would like to share.

Best of luck to all,
Tryingforspeed