You are all missing the boat on lube

[1uofacat]

Now, I'm not sure how to state this without offending anyone, but regardless here's how to maximize speed with lube, period.

This may seem a vast change from what virtually everyone is using, but try it yourself and see the results before you respond. You'll be amazed, if you use the right thing.

Here's the deal... keep all other polishing and aligning things consistent with what's been said over and over and over again. But if you want a faster car, DON'T use graphite!

Why? Because graphite is not the best lube for this application, period. You choose the brand, it doesn't matter.

Oil is the best lube, period, most likely a very high grade turbine type of oil available in most hardware stores.

Here's why. If we were trying to hold a race for how long you could spin a wheel with essentially no weight on the bearing surfaces (hub to axle) then graphite is probably best. If we're trying to see what provides the best "frictionless" surface between two load bearing surfaces (a car with weight on the wheels) then the right kind of oil will out perform graphite every time.

The reason why is because a fine grade oil will not allow the bearing surfaces to come in contact with one anther, while a dry graphite does. It's this friction that slows it down. Now graphite does a good job, but if you want the best use oil. Why do you think that oil is used in turbines and not graphite? The reason is not only because of logistics problems that come from the use of graphite, it is because oil works better.


I've probably said too much already, and will start losing races, but suffice it to say that in 7 years of racing, my children have yet to lose, except for twice. Once was because there was something on the track and my daughter's car actually came off the track on the final race between the top 4 cars (her brother won the event!). The other was when by .002 of a second my other son lost a race to a car that had wheels cut on a lathe eliminating all but 1/32 of an inch coming in contact with the track, which by the rules should have been disqualified. They had electronic timers on the track and it still looked like my son's cars won the event, but the timer stated otherwise...


Now, I've said too much already, but that's the deal. Personally I hope everyone out there thinks I'm crazy and continues to use graphite, but for me, I think I'll keep on winning, and not only winning, but blowing away everyone else.


BTW, when I spin my wheels, they don't spin for near as long as those with graphite, but when my car is on a flat surface with full weight on the wheels, the race is almost already over...

[Knothead Racing]

Well then, When can we see you car in the line up? Saturday? May?

By the way, how does your oil work with plastic? I'm always in the market for a little more speed.

[1uofacat]

Actually, the race is Wednesday. It's just a local race, but there are some other sources out there that also support this theory, and some test data as well. We've never taken this more than local events, but the results have been quite pleasant. It's funny, when we bought the car kits again this year, one of the leaders asked my daughter, "So, are you guys going to blow everyone away again this year?"


BTW, not that this matters much, but I'm a mechanical engineer by trade and always wondered about this. I'm hardly as hard-core as many here (or other websites are), but just don't like to loose.

The oil does not affect plastic, if it did it wouldn't work...

[wheeler]

Actually most of us have been using oil for past year or two.

[Knothead Racing]

1uofacat, Is this oil a synthetic or a petroleum based product?

As I understand it, a petro based product has a reaction to the plastic. I think, Krytox is a florinated synthetic. It dosen't seem to have a reaction to the plastic, that I can see.

Is this what you are using? Or something like this product? Like Mr. Wheeler said they've been using it for a couple of years now.

If it's cheaper then Krytox, sign me up.

[slkrnsntracing]

1uofacat,

You obviously build a very good car before the lube is applied. They do not make an oil or graphite that will change a dog into a consistent winner.

You should send a car in to one of the proxy races, so you can see how well it does run. It's a lot of fun, and you will probably do well.

We can always use more racers.

Phil

[DerbyDoc.com]

Ill actually be using krytox on my modified this month for the first time. It showed some improvement on my 32 ft wood track but the aluminum track will really put it to the test.

[Low E. T.]

1uofacat said:

Actually, the race is Wednesday. It's just a local race, but there are some other sources out there that also support this theory, and some test data as well. We've never taken this more than local events, but the results have been quite pleasant. It's funny, when we bought the car kits again this year, one of the leaders asked my daughter, "So, are you guys going to blow everyone away again this year?"


BTW, not that this matters much, but I'm a mechanical engineer by trade and always wondered about this. I'm hardly as hard-core as many here (or other websites are), but just don't like to loose.

The oil does not affect plastic, if it did it wouldn't work...

1uofacat,

With all due respect, I think you will find that most of the racers on these leagues have tried many things, and spent many hours testing different set-ups.

So, send one of those Rockets in, I think you will find this isn't the Cub Scouts.

[Parrot Racing]

I agree fastr, doing well in the cub scouts is great, but doing well in these league races is much more challenging, as I found out in my first race!!!

[PinewoodPerformance]

1uofacat,

Welcome to the Derby Worx Forum, we are glad to have you here and thank you for posting.
We hope you find the information here useful and I am sure as a mechanical engineer you will be a good contributor but also keep in mind, theory, principle, application or text book means nothing to this group only the times on the track and with better products available and testing the times some of these guys run are unreal. Want to build a better scout car, this group is the one.

Welcome.

Admin.

[MaxV]

Oil is the best lube, period, most likely a very high grade turbine type of oil available in most hardware stores.

An oil lubricant can work, if it is the right type of oil. With any lube, especially oils, there is a tradeoff between friction reduction and wear reduction.

The primary goal of a lubricant in power machinery is wear prevention. It does no good for the machine to spin freely if it tears itself up.

In pinewood derby racing, wear prevention is secondary - friction reduction is all important.

So, you must use a very low viscosity oil to minimize the loss of speed due to the thickness of the oil itself. That is why the low-viscosity Krytox oils do so well. I guarantee that if you try motor oil, you will not have a very fast car.

[JOKER]

1uofacat said:

Oil is the best lube, period, most likely a very high grade turbine type of oil available in most hardware stores.

We appreciate your constructive criticism to the nucleus of builders that frequent this forum. Maybe we can do the same for you.........stop using oil bought in a hardware store............there are multiple oils that are far superior & krytox 100 would be at the top of the list.

It should also be noted that both graphite & oil are used by the top builders..........track tested & race proven against the fastest cars in the nation.

...........We would not want you to miss the boat either.

[Knothead Racing]

1uofacat, Thanks for stirring the pot, you sure did get everyone talking.

That's a good thing. What ever you perspective.

[A1nogoslo]

1uofacat said:

Now, I'm not sure how to state this without offending anyone, but regardless here's how to maximize speed with lube, period.

This may seem a vast change from what virtually everyone is using, but try it yourself and see the results before you respond. You'll be amazed, if you use the right thing.

Here's the deal... keep all other polishing and aligning things consistent with what's been said over and over and over again. But if you want a faster car, DON'T use graphite!

Why? Because graphite is not the best lube for this application, period. You choose the brand, it doesn't matter.

Oil is the best lube, period, most likely a very high grade turbine type of oil available in most hardware stores.

Here's why. If we were trying to hold a race for how long you could spin a wheel with essentially no weight on the bearing surfaces (hub to axle) then graphite is probably best. If we're trying to see what provides the best "frictionless" surface between two load bearing surfaces (a car with weight on the wheels) then the right kind of oil will out perform graphite every time.

The reason why is because a fine grade oil will not allow the bearing surfaces to come in contact with one anther, while a dry graphite does. It's this friction that slows it down. Now graphite does a good job, but if you want the best use oil. Why do you think that oil is used in turbines and not graphite? The reason is not only because of logistics problems that come from the use of graphite, it is because oil works better.


I've probably said too much already, and will start losing races, but suffice it to say that in 7 years of racing, my children have yet to lose, except for twice. Once was because there was something on the track and my daughter's car actually came off the track on the final race between the top 4 cars (her brother won the event!). The other was when by .002 of a second my other son lost a race to a car that had wheels cut on a lathe eliminating all but 1/32 of an inch coming in contact with the track, which by the rules should have been disqualified. They had electronic timers on the track and it still looked like my son's cars won the event, but the timer stated otherwise...


Now, I've said too much already, but that's the deal. Personally I hope everyone out there thinks I'm crazy and continues to use graphite, but for me, I think I'll keep on winning, and not only winning, but blowing away everyone else.


BTW, when I spin my wheels, they don't spin for near as long as those with graphite, but when my car is on a flat surface with full weight on the wheels, the race is almost already over...

;D ;D ;D Oil Lube car vs Graphite Lube car.....

I've got 2 tracks to play on, a Wood one and a Aluminum one,,,, this could be fun indeed... ;D ;D ;D

If your up for a little fun and are willing to take on a challenge
I think I can arrange this for ya, we all would like to see this...

I would love to catch this on video tape and could post the race results here for everyone to see... I'm sure everyone here would love to watch it as well...

If your interested give me a holler....

[RacerX]

a1nogoslo said:

1uofacat said:

Now, I'm not sure how to state this without offending anyone, but regardless here's how to maximize speed with lube, period.

This may seem a vast change from what virtually everyone is using, but try it yourself and see the results before you respond. You'll be amazed, if you use the right thing.

Here's the deal... keep all other polishing and aligning things consistent with what's been said over and over and over again. But if you want a faster car, DON'T use graphite!

Why? Because graphite is not the best lube for this application, period. You choose the brand, it doesn't matter.

Oil is the best lube, period, most likely a very high grade turbine type of oil available in most hardware stores.

Here's why. If we were trying to hold a race for how long you could spin a wheel with essentially no weight on the bearing surfaces (hub to axle) then graphite is probably best. If we're trying to see what provides the best "frictionless" surface between two load bearing surfaces (a car with weight on the wheels) then the right kind of oil will out perform graphite every time.

The reason why is because a fine grade oil will not allow the bearing surfaces to come in contact with one anther, while a dry graphite does. It's this friction that slows it down. Now graphite does a good job, but if you want the best use oil. Why do you think that oil is used in turbines and not graphite? The reason is not only because of logistics problems that come from the use of graphite, it is because oil works better.


I've probably said too much already, and will start losing races, but suffice it to say that in 7 years of racing, my children have yet to lose, except for twice. Once was because there was something on the track and my daughter's car actually came off the track on the final race between the top 4 cars (her brother won the event!). The other was when by .002 of a second my other son lost a race to a car that had wheels cut on a lathe eliminating all but 1/32 of an inch coming in contact with the track, which by the rules should have been disqualified. They had electronic timers on the track and it still looked like my son's cars won the event, but the timer stated otherwise...


Now, I've said too much already, but that's the deal. Personally I hope everyone out there thinks I'm crazy and continues to use graphite, but for me, I think I'll keep on winning, and not only winning, but blowing away everyone else.


BTW, when I spin my wheels, they don't spin for near as long as those with graphite, but when my car is on a flat surface with full weight on the wheels, the race is almost already over...

;D ;D ;D Oil Lube car vs Graphite Lube car.....

I've got 2 tracks to play on, a Wood one and a Aluminum one,,,, this could be fun indeed... ;D ;D ;D

If your up for a little fun and are willing to take on a challenge
I think I can arrange this for ya, we all would like to see this...

I would love to catch this on video tape and could post the race results here for everyone to see... I'm sure everyone here would love to watch it as well...

If your interested give me a holler....

DO YOU GUYS IN U T A H EVER HAVE A KIND WORD OR SOME CREATIVE INPUT TO HELP THE MASSES OR DO YOU NEED TO TURN EVERYTHING INTO A CHALLENGE AND A VIEDO TAPE TO SHOW YOU ARE CORRECT ON THE SUBJECT!!!!!

THERE WAS NOTHING IN THIS POST DIRECTED AT YOU OR YOUR PWD RACING WISDOM, LIGHTEN-UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[A1nogoslo]

racerx said:

a1nogoslo said:

DO YOU GUYS IN U T A H EVER HAVE A KIND WORD OR SOME CREATIVE INPUT TO HELP THE MASSES OR DO YOU NEED TO TURN EVERYTHING INTO A CHALLENGE AND A VIEDO TAPE TO SHOW YOU ARE CORRECT ON THE SUBJECT!!!!!

THERE WAS NOTHING IN THIS POST DIRECTED AT YOU OR YOUR PWD RACING WISDOM, LIGHTEN-UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes Bill....... I would like to give the guy a chance to do it........

I'm giving him the opportunity to do so... ;D

[tonydtiger]

oh how nice! an open invitation to run a test for someone when this person doesn't even know anything about you. Why would a person take that risk rather than finding someone in his area that has a track and do that same test?

[ohsofast]

tonydtiger said:

oh how nice! an open invitation to run a test for someone when this person doesn't even know anything about you. Why would a person take that risk rather than finding someone in his area that has a track and do that same test?

Bingo

I would be afraid of my cars getting dissected more than anything.

[Lucky 13]

There looks to be plenty of "live" races this year to test your theories if your afraid someone will mess with your car. North Coast Open, Lima Land Open, Kroozinationals, PeachTree Derby, PBC Shootout, plus a few more that I hear are in the works. Get in on the fun !!

[SpeedGeek]

There's a reason the Jewkes only race on their own track...