Super Track tips?

[327vette]

Thanks to all who contribute to this site! I've read a ton of your posts over the last 15 months or so, and have learned more than I ever wanted to learn about these wood blocks!

Now, I have a question that I can't find any info. on. This is our 2nd year in PWD. Last year we finished 4th in our Pack race using 36' traditional wood track. We went to District and were shocked to see the plastic Super Track with no center rail. We finished 30th out of 60 entries.

This year, we won the Pack race on our pack's new Best Track aluminum 42' track (very bumpy at joints). Now, we need to know what, if anything, we can do to be more competitive on the "Hot Wheels" track at District. We run a 4 wheel setup with COM at about 3/4". From what I could see, 3 of the top 4 cars at District last year were 3 wheel set-ups. I hesitate to try 3 wheels on this track, for fear of bumping the outside rails with the "dead" wheel. The only way I see to avoid that is to steer the car into the other rail, which doesn't seem appealing to me.

Any experience / tips / tricks with these tracks would be appreciated. Thanks again!

[DrT1010]

Edge guided tracks are tough. I think it absurd they would use one at district event. Regardless. I have no experience personally with set up for this track. Others have tried a variety of things, the easiest rule conforming tip, have axle extended on dom RR wheel and have that gently ride the outside rail. Be certain axle head is polished and wheel rides on center of axle not head! Three wheels will work as well. Good Luck.

For more discussion see this threads: derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=3386&highlight=edge+guide

derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?p=24773&highlight=#24773

[327vette]

Ichiban,

I believe that another Pack uses this track for their race. Oddly enough, I think that Pack's entries were the ones who did well on this track at District. I noticed that the winning cars last year had a very silvery finish all over their wheels. I'm guessing they somehow managed to get graphite to coat the wheels all over. This leads me to believe that there is alot of sliding happening on this particular track, where the graphite on the wheels was an advantage. I couldn't tell if the cars were lowered or not, because I wan't really looking for it at the time. I did notice the 3 wheeled set-ups on the top finishers which furthers my theory of alot of sliding happening. Heck, I dunno!

DrT:

Thanks! That's some good info. I need to decide what I'm going to do with it!

Thanks again!

[Smokinjoesracing]

327vette,

How soon till your race...I may be able to help. My pack owns a Super Track. They are extreemly fast. Winners have covered the 35 ft track in 2.491 secs. You have an advantage since tou already know what type of track you will be running on.

[DerbyDoc.com]

Also raising a front wheel makes it a lot easier to adjust alignment. Running on that type of track, I would use add on wood on the sides to make the body bump into the side rails instead of the wheels. Just make sure to keep it within 2-3/4 wide. Ive never tested a car like this, but I have seen some cars that use this method for that type of track. Dapine racing had a car like this posted somewhere on this board. Even if you get it to run as straight as possible, it will still contact the side rails a little. The theory is that body hitting the side rails wouldnt slow it down as much as wheels hitting the side rails. Also, whichever route you decide to go, make sure that whatever hits the side rails is polished up nice and slick.

[327vette]

Ichiban,

Thanks! I'm going to try some 1350 grit tonite and see if I can get it to coat the tread and face.

Joe,

We still have 3 weeks until the race. I think the track is 42'. It may be 49', but I'm pretty sure it is 42'. I remember it had huge flat run compared to our 36' wood last year. Winner ran 3.06. I think we ran 3.26. Our Pack-winning car ran 3.11 on the 42' aluminum. I actually figured the plastic would be slower than the aluminum due to a higher rolling coefficient of friction. Maybe I'm wrong. 2.5? won the Pack race on the 36' wood last year.

DerbyDoc,

I like the guide idea. I need to see if I can easily incorporate it into the car. I agree, the wheel faces dragging those rails has got to kill the car's inertia. Joe, do you know the lane width of those tracks?

As for the 3 wheels...........If I only run 3 wheels touching, physics tells me that the friction force between the 3 axles and wheels will be greater than the same force distributed over 4 wheels. I am still supporting the same mass, but now it is only distributed to 3 points instead of 4. Therefore, in theory, 3 wheels would be to no advantage. However, by keeping one wheel from rolling, I do not have to angularly accelerate that one wheel. Thus I save 25% of the required angular acceleration of the wheels. That's where I see an advantage.

I haven't worked that much on alignment in the past. What is the best surface to use for setting alignment. Also, do I assume that the plastic track is aligned horizontally and not leaning to one side or the other?

[Smokinjoesracing]

I sent you a PM

[Smokinjoesracing]

I haven't worked that much on alignment in the past. What is the best surface to use for setting alignment. Also, do I assume that the plastic track is aligned horizontally and not leaning to one side or the other?

Try a leveled 4 ft closet mirror.

[ProQuest]

Lee,

Here is something different to think about. Widen your front end and/or narrow the rear end. Make a "wall rider" so that your steer wheel goes slightly into the wall, but turn the steer wheel around so that the inside hub is the part that contacts the axle head. That will prevent the letters on the outside of the wheel from contacting the wall, and ensure that the only thing that contacts the wall is the axle head of the front streer wheel. This set up should ensure that the rear wheels do not contact the walls.

This will work so long as the amount of steer you give it is enough to keep it on the wall and not too much to act as a brake (same as rail riding the center rail).

One other thing. You are right about the three wheel vs four wheel set up. In theory, it should not matter. But in practice it will help considerably. Lift one of the front wheels.

Food for thought.

ProQuest/Steve H.

[327vette]

Thanks ProQuest!

I think I'm going to try something along those lines! May not have the eggs to turn the wheel around!

Thanks again!

[Da Pine Racing]

Hi 327 (What a great motor),

I've raced on one of these tracks, I took 4 cars and the slowest car of the four (on a straddle track) ended up winning on the channel track. The wheel/axle prep & lube was all the same with the 4 cars. Here is the set-up I used and the picture of it's twin.

This is the car Derby Doc was referring to.

The car is a 3 wheeler and was set up to run as straight as possible.
The body was exactly 2.75" wide. Sides of car rubbed down with graphite.
When the car would glance the walls, only the body sides would touch. The car pretty much walked away from the rest of the field. I think the biggest gain was made due to the wheels not touching the side walls. The raised BSA wheel lettering did not touch and the inner hubs were not getting pushed into the side of the car body. I made another car that has what looks like curb feelers on it for the same purpose. Get the sides as low as you can for no chance of the wheel touching the wall. Proquests post is an awesome idea and sounds like it would do the job also.

Good luck at districts

Da Pine

[Go Bubba Go]

327vette said:

Thanks ProQuest!

I think I'm going to try something along those lines! May not have the eggs to turn the wheel around!

Thanks again!

If you do turn it around, it will help to also cone / bevel the wood around the axle, and remove a bit of wood in front of the axle and behind the axle.

Think of it as narrowing the front end, except that the cone remains near the axle. You do this not to bring the wheel closer to the body, but to ensure that the letters on the sidewall (remember, you installed the wheel inside out) don't rub against the body of the car.

Bubba

p.s. Come on, you got plenty of eggs and you know it

[DrT1010]

dapine said:

Hi 327 (What a great motor),

The raised BSA wheel lettering did not touch and the inner hubs were not getting pushed into the side of the car body.
Da Pine

Very nice! Seems to me the raised lettering must have been rubbing, it ain't there now!

[Smokinjoesracing]

"Edge guided tracks are tough. I think it absurd they would use one at district event. "

If a race is ran fairly then it shouldn't matter. A true "Builder" can set up a car for any track condition. It also is not absurd for a Pack to volunteer to host a district event and use such a track. What is absurd are the people who like to tell said Pack how to run their race and sit back and not raise a hand to help. 327vette has the upper hand here because he knows that he has to do something different to race on that track. That will seperate him from the rest.
As far a Super Track goes it is a very dependable race system. It isn't cheap. You will spend at least $1000 for a 4 lane track setup. It's race manager system is accurate and fair. It also runs heats so that after the first round cars with like times run against each other. This creates some very close and exciting races.
What does need to be changed is the wide spread use of Double Elimination racing. You don't get the true winner that way. I know that some Packs don't own tracks with timing systems. My gripe is that they still manufacture systems that require Double Elim. Since every track has a fast Lane and a slow lane, Duble elimination does allow for suspicion to enter the equation. I've seen packs use dog-eared cards to determine lane choice. Funny thing is their pack members always draw the fast lane. Once down each lane and timmed is the only fair way to race.

[DrT1010]

SmokinJoe, No offense intended. I was responding to vettes claim "We went to District and were shocked to see the plastic Super Track with no center rail. We finished 30th out of 60 entries." My comment was based not only on his shock at seeing an edge guided track, but that a district event would consider using one. I think we can all agree they are in the minority. I agree good builders can build for any track, however if the vast majority of Pack races are on center guided tracks and many districts either impound cars, or have rules that do not allow mods from pack race, you are at a distinct disadvantage. (Except to the host pack it would seem, who are at a distinct advantage.)

I am a hands on coordinator, Pack derby and district chair 4 years consecutive. I can appreciate a track being volunteered. I do not agree with the choice, especially if participants were "shocked" at seeing it.

We can agree on double elimination. Never used it never will. Pack races are for the boys enjoyment. As chair I always aim to maximize racing for all and schedules used achieve that end.

[327vette]

Da Pine, I LOVE that car! I may steal that design for next year!

Thank you all for the great ideas! I was afraid that nobody had raced these tracks, and I wouldn't get any replies at all. I very much appreciate all of the ideas, experiences, and suggestions.

I think the last two posts are "dead on"! I whole-heartedly agree that these events are for the boys' enjoyment, and should be treated as such. Last year I spent alot of time re-weighting the car and working the axles and wheels between the Pack and the District races. It was our first year in scouting, and I didn't even know the SuperTrack existed. It was very frustrating to walk in, see that track, and know that we had no chance to contend that day before our car even hit the track. I had 2 goals that day. First, to contend for a top 10 (medal) and second, to see how much "rule bending" went on. This year, we do have an advantage, in that we know we will race on that same track. I'm very much looking forward to working with my son to make these modifications to the car, and to teach him about the physics and mechanics behind the changes we make. It's a great opportunity for us, and that's why I appreciate all of your feedback so much! I guess, if I think about it, no matter what happens, I can't lose! That's what makes this event so cool! Thanks again!

To those that have run this track: My weight placement is aggressive. Do I need to put some more weight on the front wheel to ensure we don't "climb the wall"?

[Smokinjoesracing]

drt10102 said:

SmokinJoe, No offense intended. I was responding to vettes claim "We went to District and were shocked to see the plastic Super Track with no center rail. We finished 30th out of 60 entries." My comment was based not only on his shock at seeing an edge guided track, but that a district event would consider using one. I think we can all agree they are in the minority. I agree good builders can build for any track, however if the vast majority of Pack races are on center guided tracks and many districts either impound cars, or have rules that do not allow mods from pack race, you are at a distinct disadvantage. (Except to the host pack it would seem, who are at a distinct advantage.)

I am a hands on coordinator, Pack derby and district chair 4 years consecutive. I can appreciate a track being volunteered. I do not agree with the choice, especially if participants were "shocked" at seeing it.

We can agree on double elimination. Never used it never will. Pack races are for the boys enjoyment. As chair I always aim to maximize racing for all and schedules used achieve that end.

We use two of them (Super Tracks) and we advertise it on the District Race Website along with a link to Super Tracks website for specs. We also take one of the tracks to the less fortunate section of town where Packs can not afford a track or run a race. It is a SubDistrict event where each Pack can crown it's 4 fastest racers to send to District. I think communication is the key. 327vette is smart to have done his homework and share with his son.

[Da Pine Racing]

327vette said:

To those that have run this track: My weight placement is aggressive. Do I need to put some more weight on the front wheel to ensure we don't "climb the wall"?

Hey 327, The same weight placement that has worked for you in the past should be fine

[DrT1010]

smokinjoesracing said:

I think communication is the key. 327vette is smart to have done his homework and share with his son.

Agree completely. Unfortunately in some districts communication is poor or worse they impound or prohibit modification from pack to district. Vette is fortunate, he can plan and build for track at both levels, many are not afforded that luxury.

[Smokinjoesracing]

On a Supertrack think "inside the box". Raise your left front wheel. Add a 3/16" pre-drilled piece of wood on your right front axle hole. Sand this raw wood smooth using 400, 600, 800 & 1000 grit and polish it with graphite using a soft cloth. This wheel will ride the right rail if you steer in to the right. This will keep the rear wheel from ridding the rail too. You should still fit inside the 2-3/4 inch "go-no go" box. If it doesn't shave a little off of the LEFT side. It will still fit in the box even if it is a little crooked. Polish the outside of that right wheel with graphite (even if you plan to use Nye-oil or Krytox). If you do use oil keep the graphite away from the wheel bore.
Krytox works well on these tracks because the drop is steep and the flat is long. Most are 35 feet long or more.
Place a closet mirror on your work bench. Raise 1 side about 1-1/2" and place a rolled up t-shirt on the other. Mark some points on each end and set your car to drift to the right about 1" for the 4 ft it travels.