khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 13, 2008 17:43:07 GMT -6
I just finished adjusting all 4 cars with 1 inch run out per 6 feet. I only have a small inclune where the cars travel about 15 feet for testing. They are pretty slow down my test area in compared to a real track. Even though with negative camber and zero caster I couldn't get my rear wheels to pull out to the axle heads. So I had to adjust the the rear wheels to a slight toe out to achieve this. Like Racer says at speed everything is different. Maybe I should adjust my rear wheels back to zero toe in and caster because "at speed" this should throw my wheels outward toward the axle head. What do you all think?
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beakerboysracing
Head in the Pine
You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't flick your friends across the room.
Posts: 167
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Post by beakerboysracing on Jun 13, 2008 20:16:25 GMT -6
I think with too much toe in or out the rear wheels are going to be fighting with each other going down the track, thus slowing the car down. I wouldn't put all the worry into getting the rear wheels to migrate to the head, but by canting the axles up, you should be able to achieve that as well as reduce wheel to track friction by the wheel riding up on the edge. It only takes a couple of degrees to get the wheels to do that. If the cars are rolling as straight as you say, I believe I would leave them like they are. Without a test track, it's hard to say. If you could run the cars at speed then you could try the different toe in/out to see how it runs. Without that, shoot for rear wheels rolling straight and rail ride technique if you have narrowed front end. If no narrowed front end. set up to roll as straight as possible. Rail riding won't work without narrowed front because both front and rear wheel will rub the guide all the way.
Hope this helps Scott
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 13, 2008 20:53:11 GMT -6
There are no rules other than the car weighs no more than 5 oz, 7 inches long and you have to use the stock wheels. They don't care what you do to the wheels. So I cut them down thin to 1.2 to 1.3 grams. I have the front left wheels raised. I have cut the front right Rail rider wheel hub down to half it's length. I don't think the rear wheels will rub. I bought strait machined axles with no grooves and running Nyoil. I have all 4 cars dialed in at 1 inch run out per 6 feet. I bent each axle and cut all the heads to accept a small screw driver for adjustment. I have negative camber on both rear wheels. The average center of mass is 1-1/8 inch in front of the rear axles. The only thing that bothers me now is that the Nyoil doesn't seem as fast as graphite. I applied the oil per directions. But I only have a 3 foot board raised 4 inches for testing. Any advice?
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Post by DerbyDoc.com on Jun 13, 2008 22:06:27 GMT -6
Im an old school graphite fan. I know a lot of guys that have great results with oil, but I cant get the hang of it. I dont think that there is a magic lube, I think that it all comes down to alignment. The nyoil should run good, but Ive heard people say that you only need a fraction of a drop (if thats possible)
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 13, 2008 22:30:32 GMT -6
Doc, I'm going to run this race with the oil. I put just a drop on the axle. Then I spun the wheel and wiped off all the oil left on the axle. But just on testing and laying around I can't help to believe that and dust and lint will stick to the lube like a magnet. But who knows? I do know that the graphite is way slicker between your fingers!
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Sappington R
Head in the Pine
"The Sappster" 10oz
Posts: 210
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Post by Sappington R on Jun 14, 2008 6:00:53 GMT -6
Khouse, I'm with DerbyDoc on the oil question. I've had better results with graphite on wide wheels with big axles. However, on needles and wafer wheels (DerbyWorx RSN that is) I think oil is the way to go. I'm currently using a combo of two different oils- one is higher viscosity (Nyoil) as a base, then a drop of a "secret" low vis silicone based oil that is for a certain type of musical instrument. Please don't take this a recommendation or an endorsement (yet) as it's not proven, only theory, and besides- I'm not a paid sponsor
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 14, 2008 7:58:23 GMT -6
I'm thinking that after worked in graphite has zero viscosity. No matter how thin a layer of oil you have it still has viscosity.
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 16, 2008 20:58:53 GMT -6
Well we raced and the slotted axle heads got me out of a bind. Here's what happened. We get to the race and my youngest son wanted to make a test run down the track. So they loaded his car and off it went. He was the first car down the track. When he hit the end his car flipped over up in the air at least a foot and landed hard. I went to see what had happened as his run was fast and smooth. They had installed the best track brake backwards! Here we were left with a car out of whack! But I pulled my screw driver out and within a couple of minutes the car was back in track. I'm not sure exactly how long the track was but maybe you can tell me? It is a 4 lane Best track. It has 5 strait sections plus the curve section. To make a long story short. From what I learned here in two weeks my boys both took first place! That's right both took first. Both cars came up the brackets and met in the final. They both ran a 2.914 ! During the heats one car hit 2.900 and another was 2.905 Since there were no other adults that raced I kept the other 2 cars we built in my pocket. But after the race they ran all 4 of our cars and the times were 2.917, 2.920, 2.922 and 2.945. All thanks to this forum and the expert advice I got here. Also all of the derbyworx tools! I had the cars set to 1 inch drift in 6 feet. I noticed the 2 cars that had very light front weights -17 grams still wobbled twice down the track. The other 2 cars had around 30 grams on the front wheel and they ran strait down the rail. So I believe with light weight front ends maybe 2 inches or more drift in 6 feet? I hope to get even faster!
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Sappington R
Head in the Pine
"The Sappster" 10oz
Posts: 210
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Post by Sappington R on Jun 16, 2008 21:33:53 GMT -6
Khouse- I'm certain that it was destiny that your sons car would flip off the stop section. It was your destiny to "quick tune" with your slotted axle head trick. It worked! Congrats on a terrific performance. If you have any photo's we would love to see them.
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 16, 2008 22:12:04 GMT -6
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beakerboysracing
Head in the Pine
You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't flick your friends across the room.
Posts: 167
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Post by beakerboysracing on Jun 17, 2008 6:15:16 GMT -6
;D CONGRADULATIONS ;D
AWSOME JOB!
Scott Beakerboys
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 17, 2008 6:43:45 GMT -6
Thanks. I had two Dads and one boy ask me what I did to the cars? I gave them this web site and told them to read the forums and buy the tools. That's what I did. I think I'll invest in some tungsten and lower my weights and build a couple of new cars. I enjoyed cutting my own wheels and setting up the cars.
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 17, 2008 13:15:56 GMT -6
Best Track confirms that the track I was running on is 42 feet long. Can you tell me what kind of times I should be shooting for? Thanks!
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beakerboysracing
Head in the Pine
You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't flick your friends across the room.
Posts: 167
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Post by beakerboysracing on Jun 17, 2008 13:31:47 GMT -6
Look at www.pwdracing.com race results. Warren uses the same track and that should give you a good idea of where you are. Scott
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Post by derbydad4hire on Jun 17, 2008 22:38:13 GMT -6
khouse, all the tracks even though the same can register different times because of the way they are setup. According to your times and the relative "newness" to league racing, you seem to have a knack at building these little monsters. 2.914 is a very competetive time and very close to being a top 3 time for a big axle mod car. excellent job on the cars and one more thing... the fact that all your cars ran near the same times shows you have the skills! very nice wheels too. did you turn the hub on your dominant front wheel yourself? are you sure you are new to this?
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 17, 2008 23:18:59 GMT -6
I used to be an ASE master auto mechanic back in the late 70's and early 80's So I know some things about suspension geometry. I have been a self employed remodeling contractor for 24 years. I also am a avid metal detector user and perform modifications to detectors. I always wanted to make derby cars as a child but never had the chance. My boys are not in the Cubs or Scouts but we have found only 3 races we could build and run cars in in the past 3 years. Don't laugh but the first race was at a Walmart. There were no rules at all and I built a 8 oz and 11 oz car. We ran on a cardboard track and we swept the competition. Then we were at the resort we like to go to. When we show up there is this beautiful 42 foot Best track set up with timers and big screen. They told us they were going to have races the next day. So we went to the hobby store and I had to buy tools and supplies. We all worked into the night to build cars in our cabin. There I was turning wheels with a $19.00 cheap drill. I worked on the axles and we had cars to race the next day. There were 76 cars there and we took 4th, 8th, 11'th and 12th. There were some nice cars there. Thin wheels and slick paint jobs. Well they said they were going to have a fathers day race with only 3 weeks notice so I decided to build the best cars I could without buying wheels. I wanted to feel like we were running something we built. So I read this forum and asked questions. I purchased all of Derbyworx tools and flipped my drill press on it's side for a lathe. I used a sharpened screw driver as my turning tool. I spent a week working until 2 am turning wheels and figuring the alignment out. After deciding I was going to run a 3 wheel Rail Rider I sanded the front hubs down and squared them up with the coning tool. This way the rear wheel wouldn't touch the rail. I built a small test track too. I was on a mission to win. I was ate up with the fact we got spanked the race before! So these 4 cars are the first performers I have built. I used fishing weights and the ends cut off of concrete form stakes for weight. I guess I'll have to wait until next year to bring out my super fast new models! What's this I read about these races where you send your cars to?
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Post by Lucky 13 on Jun 18, 2008 0:48:08 GMT -6
Khouse, You can check out www.pwdracing.com or www.wirlracing.com or www.sapcar.com to find out information on league/proxy racing. Most, if not all, of the regulars on this board are league racers, so if there is anything we can help you out with, just ask !! Lucky 13
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Sappington R
Head in the Pine
"The Sappster" 10oz
Posts: 210
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Post by Sappington R on Jun 18, 2008 7:28:31 GMT -6
Khouse, I'm forming a racing team. Would you like to be on it? Kidding of course- Your last post was a classic! I think you are at the right place if you want to do more racing. I sent you a PM.
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 18, 2008 16:26:19 GMT -6
I'm ready! If I can figure out how to get my messages!
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Post by DerbyDoc.com on Jun 18, 2008 17:24:39 GMT -6
Khouse, You can check out www.pwdracing.com or www.wirlracing.com or www.sapcar.com to find out information on league/proxy racing. Most, if not all, of the regulars on this board are league racers, so if there is anything we can help you out with, just ask !! Lucky 13 I still wanna try the sapcar league. If I can find time, then Im gonna send one this year before my "Official Retirement".
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