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Post by quillgordo on Jan 9, 2009 8:18:56 GMT -6
I had a brainstorm last night. In an effort to reduce the friction caused by the inner wheel hub rubbing against the car body, I want to drill a shallow hole above each axel in the car body and superglue a bb in place. Then the hub only makes contact with a minute surface.
The simple rule form says " no bushing, washers or wheel bearings may be used" Obviously these are all moveable, modifications and make contact with the axel.
I see people suggesting a build up of epoxy or some router away part of the wood surface area to reduce friction.
Is my idea going to be considered legal? Thanks
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Sappington R
Head in the Pine
"The Sappster" 10oz
Posts: 210
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Post by Sappington R on Jan 9, 2009 9:11:26 GMT -6
quillgordo- hey welcome the board and congrats on your first post!
You have a nice idea. I can see where this would be useful with a very narrow gap and if you aren't canting. Coning helps too. But, a strong set-up will never let the wheels touch the body with careful tuning. Still your idea is good "insurance".
In the league cars many of the builders use teflon washers.
I am going to try your idea on the FDW (front dominant).
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Post by quillgordo on Jan 9, 2009 9:21:48 GMT -6
Thanks for the quick reply. I'd like to hear others thoughts also. If the bb solution is legal, then this brings the next question. Since the contact point between the inner wheel hub and bb would be less than the contact point between outer wheel and hub, would be benefit by canting the axels down instead of up?  Just a thought. |
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Post by Derby Monkey on Jan 9, 2009 10:00:17 GMT -6
I cannot see where the BB idea would be illegal in our district rules. It actually sounds like a very good idea. You're right... its not a moving part. You can always say that you were just fine tuning your weight.  Sapp is right... if you cant properly then the need for the BB reduces significantly. You do not want to cant by bending your axles down. That will only force the wheels to ride up against the body during the entire run. The reason for bending the axles up is to keep the wheels floating away from the body. |
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Post by quillgordo on Jan 9, 2009 10:22:06 GMT -6
Ahh, but with the bb, the wheels would not ride against the body but against the bb, which would be a smaller friction surface than the inside of the axel hub- right? ? |
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Post by Derby Monkey on Jan 9, 2009 11:02:35 GMT -6
OK... now I see what you're thinking. Well... it just might work. You would just have to make sure that the hub is only touching the BB and not the body. You might be on to something. If I were going to try that, I would probably first do it on a trial basis to see how it performed. (you kinda need a test track for that though) I would not have the confidence to show up on race day useing a new technique... but that's just me.  I wish you the best of luck and please keep us updated on your progress. Thanks for sharing!!! ;D |
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Post by speedie4u on Jan 9, 2009 11:15:37 GMT -6
Remove the wood around the axle area, if the body prevents you from rounding of the axle whole. Meaning your body is thicker than 1/4 of a inch. so you can not just round the wood.
I would grind out around the axle whole. toss on some epoxy for hardness and you will still have a very then contact point.
polish the over the epoxy with your graphite and nice, smooth, shiny and hard.
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Post by MaxV on Jan 9, 2009 11:17:17 GMT -6
Be careful. If I were the inspector, I would consider the BB to be a "bushing". Generally, you cannot have any item between the wheel hub and the car body.
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Sappington R
Head in the Pine
"The Sappster" 10oz
Posts: 210
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Post by Sappington R on Jan 9, 2009 12:25:05 GMT -6
The more I think of it: I have to agree with Maxv on the rules for BSA. Leagues though- wide open (pretty sure).
As far as "canting" goes- bending up will create negative camber & bending down will create positive camber. Always go with negative if any on the rear. Maxv had an inter sting article about canting in his news letter which you can see on his website. The Rail Rider tool is perfect for bending axles.
If canting is allowed (sometimes it's not) negative will make the wheels ride to the axle head while positive will cause them to migrate to the body, but if you set your FDW as the RR then the Center Strip will negate the effect of Pos. Camb. and push the wheel back to the head. make sense? It's a "strong" set-up.
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JustaDad
Addicted to Speed
1Cor 9:24
Posts: 79
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Post by JustaDad on Jan 9, 2009 14:36:06 GMT -6
Be careful. If I were the inspector, I would consider the BB to be a "bushing". Generally, you cannot have any item between the wheel hub and the car body. I agree with MaxV also. You might do fine at the pack level but the higher you go the tougher the inspections can get. I have a question though, how do you intend to polish the BB's as smooth as the axle heads can be polished? While contact point is much smaller you may create more friction by having a rougher surface. I have toyed with the idea of using these things called eyelets in the axle holes but it really is just a bushing then. For that matter, so is the epoxy just free formed and it is disguised better. The best bet is a thin body, coned hubs and canted axles. Keep it legal for the boys sake. Unless this is a dad car and you are allowed to push the rules. Good Luck!! |
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Post by quillgordo on Jan 9, 2009 15:18:48 GMT -6
Well, after putting in the bb, I would just polish the bearing surface with my jewelers rouge on the dremmel buffer. IT's pretty clean already, if you are careful to keep the injection spot away. Since the spot of contact is probably the size of a pencil point anyway, I assume the friction would be much less than the axle hub. Now this opens up a whole line of discussion on bb quality!!!!!! copper plated, zinc, brand etc etc. If it works, at some point in time, someone will probably be using cold water pearls!!!!!!
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beakerboysracing
Head in the Pine
You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't flick your friends across the room.
Posts: 167
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Post by beakerboysracing on Jan 9, 2009 16:37:04 GMT -6
I had a brainstorm last night. In an effort to reduce the friction caused by the inner wheel hub rubbing against the car body, I want to drill a shallow hole above each axel in the car body and superglue a bb in place. Then the hub only makes contact with a minute surface. The simple rule form says " no bushing, washers or wheel bearings may be used" Obviously these are all moveable, modifications and make contact with the axel. I see people suggesting a build up of epoxy or some router away part of the wood surface area to reduce friction. Is my idea going to be considered legal? Thanks I would think it would be considered a washer and ruled illegal. If in doubt, just ask. I'm sure the rules committee would give a ruling prior to the race. May save yourself the headache of having to modify the car at checkin. On the other hand, if it is legal, I would use teflon balls. You can get them in various sizes, are easy to drill, and are supper slick. I use the on my needle cars. Just cut in half, drill your axle hole, and glue to the side of car. You can even grind around the axle hole and recess the ball into the side of the body. Another thought is Teflon solid rod. Just cut off, drill your axle hole, insert into side of body where the axle comes out. Its real easy to shape so you could cone the rod (double cone, rod and wheel). Scott Beakerboys |
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Post by ProQuest on Jan 9, 2009 19:05:49 GMT -6
I can't see how a bb would be considered a "washer" or "bushing." However, it might well be considered an insert, which are commonly prohibited in Pure Stock classes. I don't recall the WIRL Pure Stock rules, but the PWDR Pure Stock Rules prohibit inserts.
H
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beakerboysracing
Head in the Pine
You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't flick your friends across the room.
Posts: 167
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Post by beakerboysracing on Jan 9, 2009 19:46:47 GMT -6
I can't see how a bb would be considered a "washer" or "bushing." However, it might well be considered an insert, which are commonly prohibited in Pure Stock classes. I don't recall the WIRL Pure Stock rules, but the PWDR Pure Stock Rules prohibit inserts. H Hey Steve, My thought process about it being considered a washer was this. I pulled this definition off an online dictionary: Washer: A flat disk, as of metal, plastic, rubber, or leather, placed beneath a nut or at an axle, bearing, or a joint to relieve friction, prevent leakage, or distribute pressure. The definition say a flat disc but also defines a something that reduces friction, so that is where I think there may be a grey area open for interpitation. If I were the inspector, and the rules stated no washers, bushings, or bearings, I would rule the modification illegal. Now that I think about it after rereading the original post about mounting the BB above the axle hole, I would think that would cause more friction. The whole idea of coning the hub of a wheel is to not only make the friction surface area smaller, put also to put that friction point closer to the center of the bore the wheel. The closer the friction point is to the bore, the less surface area and friction, thus less braking torque. With the BB mounted above the axle, there would be more surface area for the hub to contact as the outside of the hub rotates further than the inner part. Plus I think with the BB mounted on one side of the axle of the wheel, it would do all kinds of funky things when the wheel contacted it, like wobble, vibration, or make the wheel bind on the axle. I'm really getting above my head and wish 3cub ( our resident professor) were here to explain it. Anyway, thats was my reasoning behind it. Hope I didn't sound too stupid. Scott Beakerboys |
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