BSA District Finals

[JustaDad]

My son is a WEB I and finished 1st in WEB I and 3rd overall, so we are going to Districts for the first time in our lives. Having never been I would like to know what to expect. I know that different Packs can set different rules for the cars but how does that work at the district level?

If anyone can enlighten me that would be great.
Pack 775 The Woodlands TX

Just a Dad/Mark

[Go Bubba Go]

Mark:

Hopefully you are in a Pack that adopts your District rules as their own Pack rules. This makes life much easier. However, I'm not real big on "hopefully".

Your PWD Chairman should be able to give you the lay of the land and answer any questions. However, I'm also not real big on "should".

I would seek out your District PWD chairman (if your Pack PWD Chairman can't provide you his contact info that is not a good sign - check with the District office) and ask for a copy of the District rules. Review them against your Pack rules and the setup that your boy's car currently has.

A few things look into:

1) Does your District require a post-Pack "impound" of the car, or are you free to tweak the car between Pack and District races, or even submit a different car for Districts if you wish (some Districts do allow this).

2) Are there any rules at the District level which would cause your boy's current car to be DQ'd at District (i.e. District requires standard 4-3/8" wheelbase, where Pack allowed and you built extended wheelbase).

3) Are there any rules at the District level which would allow for advantageous techniques that were not allowed at your Pack race (i.e. District allows 3 wheelers, Pack requires 4 on the floor).

4) If you are unsure of a rule and it's application, send the District PWD Chairman an eMail with your question. Indicate this is your first time to Districts and you will happily comply, you just need clarification.

5) If you wish to relube the boy's car before District, don't assume you will be able to do so at the site of the races. Many locations prohibit this due to the potential mess, so you may need to do this ahead of time.

Just a few thoughts...

If you have any more specific questions, let us know. Most of the specifics to your District will need to be answered by the District PWD Chair, but other generic questions (do you relube after Pack races or not, what tools / stuff do you take with you to the District race, etc. could be vetted here).

Bubba

[JustaDad]

Thank you Bubba, I'll fire off an e-mail and see what I can find out.

[JustaDad]

Thanks for the link. Sam Houston Council only offers a deffinition of what a pinewood derby is, no rules. Bummer. I'm contacting people in the district to see if they know anything.

[JustaDad]

I got the rules:
I. Construction Requirements: A. Length, Width and Clearance
1.Maximum overall width (including wheels and axles) shall not exceed 2 ¾”.
2.Minimum width between wheels shall be 1 ¾”, so car will clear center guide strip.
3.Minimum distance between bottom of car and track shall be 3/8, so car will clear the center guide strip.
This distance also applies to any protrusion from the bottom of the car such as weights.
4.Maximum length shall not exceed 7", to include accessories.
5.The wheelbase (distance between front and rear axles) may be changed, as long as the wheels do not
extend past the nose or back of the car
6.The nose of the car must parallel with the front axle and at least 1/2" flat (no pointed noses) for proper
starting and finishing requirements.
B. Weight and Appearance.
1.Weight shall not exceed 5.00 ounces. The reading of the Official Race Scale will be considered final. The
car may be hollowed out and built up to the maximum weight by the addition of other material provided
they are securely built into the body or firmly affixed to it. No loose materials of any kind are permitted in
or on the car.
2.Use only B.S.A Official Pine wood Derby Kit only. No pre made kits from hobby stores allowed.
3.Mercury shall not be used. It is a health hazard.
4.Details such as steering wheels, driver, spoiler, decals, painting, interiors and exterior detail are
permissible as long as the car satisfies length, width, clearance and weight specifications.
5.Cars with wet paint or glue will not be accepted.
C. Wheels and Axles.
1.The only wheels and axles allowed are from the B.S.A Official Pine wood Derby kit.
2.Wheels must be free-spinning. Bearings, spacers or bushings are prohibited.
3.All 4 wheels must be perpendicular with the track and a minimum of 3 touching the track at all times.
4.The car shall not ride on any types of springs.
5.The car must be freewheeling with no assisted starting or other propulsion.
6.Only the tread surface and width may be altered. The tread surface of the wheel may be altered only to a
flat surface that is parallel to the axle. The tread width may be altered only from the side facing the car.
The tread width may not be less than .275". The wheel diameter may not be less than 1.150" or greater
than 1.200". Lightly sanding and/or polishing the tread of the wheel to remove burs will not reduce the
diameter below allowable levels.
7.Under side of axle head may be ground or filled to remove burs. Axle shaft diameter may not be less
than .090". Simple polishing of the axles will not reduce the diameter below allowable level.
8.No wheel covers (i.e. hubcaps) are permitted.
D. Lubrication.
1.Only dry powered lubricants, such as graphite, may be used. Regular oils and silicone spray may soften
the plastic wheels.
II. Inspection and disputes
A. Each car must pass inspection by the Official Inspection Team before it can compete. The Inspection Team has
the right to disqualify those cars which do not meet these rules. Car owners will be informed of the violations and given an
opportunity to modify the car to meet these rules. If the car cannot be modified to meet the rules, at the discretion of the
Race Committee, the car may be allowed to run for time only. In such case no prizes or recognition will be awarded.
B. Once a car has been inspected it may not be altered in any fashion. Any car taken for repair must be reinspected
prior to allowing it to continue to race.
C. Any participant or their parent has the right of appeal to the Race Committee for an interpretation of these rules.
The Race Committee, by majority vote, will be the final judge of these rules.
D. Any protest of a cars compliance with the rules must be filed with the Race Chairperson prior to competition.
E. These rules are to use in conjunction with the “Official Grand Prix Pine wood Derby Kit” instructions, found inside
your son’s pine wood derby kit.
George Strake District Pine wood Derby Rules

How do you see it regarding wheels? The scout rules for the Pack PWD did not allow altered wheel base, but the only way he will be competitive at districts to to change it. I just want you opinions as to the wheels.

Thank you,

[zyft02]

Just a Dad/Mark,

7. ...Axle shaft diameter may not be less
than .090"...

I just measured the axles right out of the box and I'm measuring approximately 0.0860. Could this be a typo or am I missing something?

z

[JustaDad]

I'm not sure if it is a typo but I doubt they will be throwing a mic on to see, especially with the wheels mounted. I think they are trying to prevent needle axles and grooved axles.

[Go Bubba Go]

justadad said:

C. Wheels and Axles.
1.The only wheels and axles allowed are from the B.S.A. Official Pinewood Derby kit.
2.Wheels must be free-spinning. Bearings, spacers or bushings are prohibited.
3.All 4 wheels must be perpendicular with the track and a minimum of 3 touching the track at all times.
4.The car shall not ride on any types of springs.
5.The car must be freewheeling with no assisted starting or other propulsion.
6.Only the tread surface and width may be altered. The tread surface of the wheel may be altered only to a
flat surface that is parallel to the axle. The tread width may be altered only from the side facing the car.
The tread width may not be less than .275". The wheel diameter may not be less than 1.150" or greater
than 1.200". Lightly sanding and/or polishing the tread of the wheel to remove burs will not reduce the
diameter below allowable levels.
7.Under side of axle head may be ground or filled to remove burs. Axle shaft diameter may not be less
than .090". Simple polishing of the axles will not reduce the diameter below allowable level.
8.No wheel covers (i.e. hubcaps) are permitted.
...

How do you see it regarding wheels? The scout rules for the Pack PWD did not allow altered wheel base, but the only way he will be competitive at districts to to change it. I just want you opinions as to the wheels.

Thank you,

I would ask for a clarification regarding "only the tread surface and width may be altered". On the surface it appears to prohibit coning hubs, but your District guy may tell you the rule was put in place to prevent lightening wheels, drilling holes in the sidewalls, and other "major" alterations but that coning of hubs is OK. I would probably check also regarding beveling the axle heads... seems to be permitted, but it never hurts to ask.

Might also want to probe a little on the intent / interpretation of the requirement that all 4 wheels be perpendicular to the track surface to determine whether a mild cant is allowed. Bear in mind that you are not trying to "fudge" here, you are trying to understand what actually is and is not allowed so that you can act accordingly. If you want, in your inquiry to the District chair you can refer to the BSA liscensed (but not sanctioned... there's a hornet's nest...) book by David Meade and ask whether these tips that are found in the "BSA book" are allowed in your District or not.

Not sure what to make of the wheel height and width restrictions, our rules basically allow no mods at all so I haven't thought about what advantages you could gain from them.

I would certainly be extending your wheelbase. I didn't see anything in the rules along the lines of "the car entered in the District race must be the identical car run in the Pack race" (close to our Council verbiage), so it appears you can change the wheelbase or perhaps build a new one with extended if you choose (I would build it nearly identical in appearance though in order to not "stir the pot" unnecessarily).

Might want to talk to your Pack folks about synching up their rules with the District rules, esp. regarding extended wheelbase allowance.

Bubba

p.s. I take it that you are still in possession of your car from Pack. Any pics of it, or a description of it's current setup with respect to 3 vs. 4 wheels, coned vs. non-coned hubs, etc.?

[JustaDad]

I will make sure that the same rues are used for next years Pack PWD!

We do have the car and looking at it a new car would be a better way to go. It would take a lot of work to get his car which is very limited on mods but runs well, to compete with the other cars. Extending the wheels base will kill the weight positions and make the car too front heavy.

I'll have to let my son decide how he wants to proceed. He spent a lot of time on polishing the axles and prepping the wheels but did not cone them.

[zyft02]

Mark,

"I'm not sure if it is a typo but I doubt they will be throwing a mic on to see, especially with the wheels mounted. "

Unfortunately I would not take anything for granted when it comes to participating at a district race.

Granted there seems to be a lot of questions that need to be better clarified on the rules you posted. Some things I've never seen before.. (or at least how they were stated)

z

[DrT1010]

zyft02 said:

Just a Dad/Mark,

7. ...Axle shaft diameter may not be less
than .090"...

I just measured the axles right out of the box and I'm measuring approximately 0.0860. Could this be a typo or am I missing something?

z

LOL Try to find a stock out of the box BSA axle that measures .090! Had to be a typo. Err on the side of caution and ask for clarification. Safe than sorry.

[Go Bubba Go]

drt10102 said:

LOL Try to find a stock out of the box BSA axle that measures .090! Had to be a typo. Err on the side of caution and ask for clarification. Safe than sorry.

It could be that the rules just haven't been updated for a loooong time, I believe the axles in the older kits (esp. the much older kits) had a larger radius.

Reminds me of a set of rules I saw a month or so ago (don't recall whose) that specified that only the wheels and axles that came with the BSA 1622 kit could be used. I think the 1622 kit was replaced by the #17006 about 10 years ago LOL.

Bubba

[JustaDad]

They sent out a correction today.
7.Under side of axle head may be ground or filled to remove burs. Axle shaft diameter may not be less
than .086 (+/- .001)". Simple polishing of the axles will not reduce the diameter below allowable level.

Now that looks more like it. I'm glad I posted them and go such fast feedback to get this fixed well before the race.

[zyft02]

Mark,

Besides those rules that you got for district, did they mention anywhere what kind of track you'll be racing on? Because each pack varies between the older wooden "classic" and the longer smoother aluminum...which would determine how to update your pack cars...or build new ones if allowed...

z

[JustaDad]

The Pack track is wood but the district track, is an aluminum track 42' long, I don't know the brand.

[ProQuest]

Hey JustaDad:

Check your pms. I left you one.

ProQuest/Steve H.