khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 5, 2008 21:29:01 GMT -6
In a perfect world with a 4 wheel car set up exact will it be faster to raise one of the front wheels? I have read if you raise a wheel then that weight is bearing more on the other 3 hubs. So for those who have ran 3 or 4 wheels - what's better?
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Post by Lucky 13 on Jun 5, 2008 21:46:39 GMT -6
In a perfect world with a 4 wheel car set up exact will it be faster to raise one of the front wheels? I have read if you raise a wheel then that weight is bearing more on the other 3 hubs. So for those who have ran 3 or 4 wheels - what's better? I think you will find that 99% of all league cars run with one raised front wheel !! I'm sure there is someone out there that can explain the "scientific" reasoning behind this, but, it's better to just have 3 touching !! Also only having one front wheel touching makes alignment and rail riding much easier to do !! Lucky 13
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 5, 2008 22:08:24 GMT -6
Possibly with the wet lube the extra friction on the three remaining hubs is small? I guess I just can't see where riding a rail can be faster than not rubbing the rail? Just seems to go against all we are trying to do?
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Post by slkrnsntracing on Jun 6, 2008 6:05:27 GMT -6
Possibly with the wet lube the extra friction on the three remaining hubs is small? I guess I just can't see where riding a rail can be faster than not rubbing the rail? Just seems to go against all we are trying to do? The only way I have found to keep my cars running straight is to rail ride. Another thing that you have to remember is the dominant front wheel will have less than 15 - 20gms on it, so when it rubs the rail there is not a lot of friction loss. On the other hand the rear wheels will have over 60gms on each of them. When they rub the rail you lose a lot more friction than you do when the dominant front wheel rubs the rail. When the rear of the car gets whipping back and forth, it scrubs a lot of speed from the car every time it rubs the rail. I usually narrow the front of the car to keep the rear wheels away from the rail. Hope this helps a little. Phil
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 6, 2008 6:24:36 GMT -6
I guess I will try the Rail Rider thing. Would it be better to run zero camber and a slight toe in?
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Post by slkrnsntracing on Jun 6, 2008 7:35:07 GMT -6
I guess I will try the Rail Rider thing. Would it be better to run zero camber and a slight toe in? khouse, The way you get the car going to the rail is with toe in. I usually try to go 1"-2" in 4'. I normally try to run zero camber also, not because it is faster, but it is easier to align that way. Phil
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Post by Go Bubba Go on Jun 6, 2008 8:53:13 GMT -6
In a perfect world with a 4 wheel car set up exact will it be faster to raise one of the front wheels? I have read if you raise a wheel then that weight is bearing more on the other 3 hubs. So for those who have ran 3 or 4 wheels - what's better? I think you will find that 99% of all league cars run with one raised front wheel !! I'm sure there is someone out there that can explain the "scientific" reasoning behind this, but, it's better to just have 3 touching !! Also only having one front wheel touching makes alignment and rail riding much easier to do !! Lucky 13 The immediate gain that you get when raising the 4th wheel is that if done correctly (i.e. you keep the raised wheel from touching the center rail), you no longer waste any of your limited potential energy "spinning up" the 4th wheel. "Spinning up" the 4th wheel isn't "free", just pick up one of your cars and try to get a wheel to spin without applying any energy to it . Then consider what your real objective is - is it to spin up all the wheels or is it to move that little car down the track as fast as possible? You want to direct every little tiny bit (stop and consider how many races are won by thousandths of a second) of your limited potential energy toward the latter goal. Even if the raised wheel does touch the rail and "spin up" further down the track, your car would have gotten a quicker start and attained a better overall time by not having to "spin up" the wheel at the very beginning of the race. The longer you can delay that little "touch of the brakes", the better the time you will have. Ideally you delay it until after the finish line (who cares if it "spins up" on contact with the stop section? actually, that would be a good thing as it would help stop the car a little quicker). Even if you didn't rail ride (which you should , having the car get off the start line and get partway down the track before the "4th wheel spin up loss" should reduce your overall time. But the best results (currently - they're always improving methods) on real tracks by real builders are with 3 wheel rail riders. You are correct that the total amount of axle to bore friction pretty much remains the same, it's just divided between 3 axle to bore locations now instead of 4. Could be a little less if you're using grooved axles, not as sure on that. Bubba p.s. Not to say that you can't hose up a 3 wheeled rail rider (oversteer) to the point that it would perform worse than a 4 wheeler, but with a little practice you can make a 3 wheeled rail rider fly. ;D
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 6, 2008 17:00:58 GMT -6
OK, you sold me! I'm going to angle the tool and drill the front running wheel for a slight toe in. I think I will also rework the raised wheel to weigh under a gram since it's really not being used. My other wheels I turned weigh 1.3 grams. I also reduced the front hub by half. This should keep the rear wheel from touching the rail? What do you think?
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Post by DerbyDoc.com on Jun 6, 2008 19:00:23 GMT -6
OK, you sold me! I'm going to angle the tool and drill the front running wheel for a slight toe in. I think I will also rework the raised wheel to weigh under a gram since it's really not being used. My other wheels I turned weigh 1.3 grams. I also reduced the front hub by half. This should keep the rear wheel from touching the rail? What do you think? Narrow the car body to 1 5/8" between the front wheels. Keep the car 1 3/4" between the rear wheels. This will help with a railrider also.
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 6, 2008 19:25:55 GMT -6
What would you say your toe in is in degrees? Thanks!
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 18, 2008 22:07:55 GMT -6
I set 4 cars up with 1 inch drift in 6 feet. Two cars had around 35 grams on the front wheel and the other two had around 17 grams. After inspecting the inner side of the dominant wheel I found that the two cars with the heavier fronts were true Rail Riders. I could see where they rubbed the track. The other lighter front end cars wobbled twice down the track. After inspecting those dominate wheels they had no sign of running the rail. So I believe the lighter the front the more drift you need. I think I'll run 3 inches of drift in 6 feet next time on the lighter front cars.
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beakerboysracing
Head in the Pine
You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't flick your friends across the room.
Posts: 167
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Post by beakerboysracing on Jun 19, 2008 6:48:16 GMT -6
Khouse, My understanding of the purpose of raising a front wheel is this:
1. It is much easier to align one wheel than two on the front. 2. Friction is not reduced, just redistributed from 4 wheels to 3, so no gain there. 3. The gain is realized at the start as it takes less energy to start 3 wheels rolling than 4. You have less surface friction( only 3 wheels touching instead of 4) so less potential energy is used to overcome surface friction and that potential energy can then be converted into kinetic energy to get the car to roll. Its kinda the same idea of why lighter wheels are faster than full wieght wheels, less energy to get them to roll. 4. A raised wheel is a must if you are going to railride.
Gobubba is right though about "spinning up" that raised wheel. While traveling down the track, you raised wheel is not spinning, or spinning very little. It is the "KISS OF SPEED DEATH" for that raise wheel to contact the rail. When it does, it takes kinetic energy away from the car and slows it down. So, if you are going to raise a wheel, keep it off the rail. Do like DerbyDoc suggested and narrow the car body and steer the car into the rail on the DFW side. I use a pro axle press to bend my DFW axle at about 2 1/2 to 3 degrees. You can then(with your slotted axle head design) very easily adjust your steering on the DFW.
Hope this helps.
PS Send those cars into WIRL OR PWDRACING. You can race all year and its great fun! Plus, you will be racing against the best ie Derby Doc, Proquest, Slkrsnt, Da Pine, and all the rest. You can really gain alot of insite by hanging with these guys.
See ya at the races,
Scott Beakerboys
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 19, 2008 7:43:06 GMT -6
If I knew the lighter weighted front end cars wasn't going to have the traction to turn the front to the rail I would have given them more drift or shifted my rear weight? I didn't know that at the time. So I just came up with the theory that the lighter the front end the more drift you need. As far as sending the cars away for racing. I have found I think 4 places to race. Which race should I start with. I feel these cars I have are in the modified class. Also do they just keep your cars all season then send them back?
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beakerboysracing
Head in the Pine
You can pick your friends, you can pick your nose, but you can't flick your friends across the room.
Posts: 167
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Post by beakerboysracing on Jun 19, 2008 8:06:36 GMT -6
Khouse, I try to set my wieght distribution at 80 % to 20 %. Thats 80 % of the wieght on the rear and 20 % on the front. Most of the time that equates to approximately 20 - 30 grams of wieght to the front end. I don't use a real scientific way to figure it out, just put the rear of the car on a block of wood and place front of car with wheels centered on scale onto the scale. I try to get the car level between block and scale. You should weight on front wheels around 20-30 grams.
As far as proxy racing, I like Wirl because they are close to me and Jennifer and Steve do a great job. They have a race this Saturday starting at around 7:00 pm EST. Pwdracing is another great venue as Warren (Mr. Slick) and Lucky 13 do an awesome job with these races. The next race is July 5th and usually start at around 1 or 2 PM EST.
You mail your cars to them monthly. They will keep them for you if you like, but most guys like to tune them in between races to try and improve their times so they get them mailed back after the race.
Get Yahoo instant messanger and you can join into the online chat with all the racers. If you have a headset mic(get one at office depot for around $20.00) then you can chat live with everyone. Get your Yahoo account set (FREE) and send Derby Doc (Tory) a PM and he will invite you to chat online for the Wirl race. WIRl race has video live so you can watch results as well as chat with everyone. Pwdracing uses a web cam and Yahoo instant messanger. Send Mr. Slick a PM on pwdracing.com discussion board and he will invite you to watch race and chat live during the race.
See ya at the races
Scott Beakerboysracing
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Post by FAST Racing on Jun 19, 2008 10:21:48 GMT -6
khouse,
As you are finding out, the alignment or "tuning" of these little wooden toys is the key.
Kudos for the slotted axle head, it does make the adjustment process faster!
Don't forget to protect ALL THAT EFFORT ! Nothing will break your heart faster than to have your car damaged in shipping. The patented "the t00b" is the safest, most secure way to ship your car.
Don't take my word for it..... ask any builder who has one. ProQuest,Mr.Slick sappingtonr,SLK,docb,psycaz, etc.
Want to know more? Just PM me....
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Post by derbydad4hire on Jun 19, 2008 15:36:36 GMT -6
The Toob is INCREDIBLE! Wow, I got my first look at them in person this weekend and it is definately the best method of shipping I have ever seen! You can fit 2 of them in a flat rate USPS box so it is pretty cheap to ship too. Big thumbs up FAST, no more shipping worries.
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Post by ohsofast on Jun 19, 2008 16:14:47 GMT -6
khouse, As you are finding out, the alignment or "tuning" of these little wooden toys is the key. Kudos for the slotted axle head, it does make the adjustment process faster! Don't forget to protect ALL THAT EFFORT ! Nothing will break your heart faster than to have your car damaged in shipping. The patented "the t00b" is the safest, most secure way to ship your car. Don't take my word for it..... ask any builder who has one. ProQuest,Mr.Slick sappingtonr,SLK,docb,psycaz, etc. Want to know more? Just PM me.... Fast, You have a patent # already? Just the other day you said you had applied for one. there is a HUGE difference between a "Patent Pending" and a "Utility Patent". I can't find where you have applied for it, had our people here at work who do that all the time look for fun. I guess for your sake that league thing better take off since patents and not cheap to go the whole way and it looks if there are only a handful of people racing in several leagues. Good Luck. Terry
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Post by derbydad4hire on Jun 19, 2008 17:41:53 GMT -6
I guess for your sake that league thing better take off since patents and not cheap to go the whole way and it looks if there are only a handful of people racing in several leagues. Good Luck. Terry I think this might also have a place in the scouting community also. People spend hours and hours building cars and this will protect the final product until the big race begins.
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Post by FAST Racing on Jun 19, 2008 17:48:46 GMT -6
ohosofast, please forgive me for misspeaking. My excitement & enthusiasm for a better,safer way to ship a derby car must have caused a "brain burp" Sorry to hijack this thread khouse...
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khouse
Head in the Pine
Posts: 199
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Post by khouse on Jun 19, 2008 19:29:21 GMT -6
Where can I see this toob you speak of? I just might give it a WIRL!
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