234
Addicted to Speed
Posts: 79
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Post by 234 on May 10, 2006 14:23:51 GMT -6
Glenn, what are you trying to suggest? I keep seeing your videos which by the way are very nicely done. It appears to me that your home track is slightly quicker than the WIRL track even though your April times were very close. I probably do more testing or at least just a much testing as anyone on this forum and I can tell you that it does not take much of a change to effect the way a car performs. Every track is different and every track has a slow lane and a fast lane, and no two tracks can be set up exactly the same. I would venture to say that if the April race was run on your home track the end results would have turned out very similar even though the times would more than likely have been a little quicker. All 62 cars that ran in April ran on the same track and every car ran twice in each lane all under the same conditions. I just don’t see where you are going with this. Hopefully, some of our fellow WIRL competitors will chime in and give us their opinion.
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Post by speedteaser on May 10, 2006 14:35:02 GMT -6
It appears to me that your home track is slightly quicker than the WIRL track even though your April times were very close. How could the track be different did you watch video #3 and see that his car ran 2 tenthousands "slower" average than he did in the April race at WIRL. Also did you see the video 1 with Emersons car "Money Pit" that ran in March 3.0583 average and then On 2fast's track and ran a 3.063 average on there track ? to me his track is a bit slower than WIRLS.
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Post by A1nogoslo on May 10, 2006 16:21:57 GMT -6
Ok 234,,,, How can a car race on say, track A and then go back to track B and run the same? ? But then come from track B and go to track A and run much much slower ? But on track B it runs super fast before it goes to track A and then when it goes to track A it runs slow? So what were getting at is that how can it run the same only one way? ;D
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greenhorn
Head in the Pine
I feel the need, the need, for SPEED!!!
Posts: 132
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Post by greenhorn on May 11, 2006 10:08:08 GMT -6
This may sound weird. It's been suggested that the tracks are the same and the conditions were the same. But the times weren't.
Let's look at tracks first. As something of an analogy, when I was drag racing, every part of the car had a tolerance. An acceptable deviation from perfect. Granted, those tolerances were very small, but they are differences none-the-less. What are Best Track's tolerances in their manufacturing process of their tracks? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that their specification tolerances are something greater than 0 (zero), which would indicate that no two tracks, not to mention track sections, are perfectly exactly the same. Are both tracks at the same exact level for the entire length of the track. Perhaps that could account for some small difference.
Now let's take a look at conditions. These cars are made of wood. Even if you bake your block before you build, during the entire existence of that block of wood, it is going to absorb some moisture from the air, thus causing some differences. Unless you completely seal every surface, but then with the 1"x1/2" bare wood spot required by WIRL rules, your car would now not be WIRL legal and not be able to race.
Then there is temperature. Wood is susceptible to expansion and contraction due to moisture content and temperature. The expansion and contraction can be at different rates on different parts of the car unless the grain in the wood block used is perfectly equal and exact across the entire block (unlikely). Most of us use glue or epoxy to affix weights to our wood blocks, this is now 2 more materials that expand and contract at different rates than each other and the wood. And I haven't even mentioned barometric pressure... Or amount, type or run in of lube...
The drag racers out there know what I'm talking about. Why then would we have to tune a steel/iron engine differently from one track to another? All the tracks are the same 1/4 mile. Either concrete or asphalt. Because many things affect it, oxygen content (try drag racing in Houston and then go to Denver without retuning your engine). Temperature, we used to ice down our intake manifolds between heats. Etc, etc.
Even on the same track but on different days I would expect differences. Was the barometric pressure, temperature, and humidity exactly the same?
I could go on and on about this. I don't really think it matters going from track A to B to C to A to D... Part of the fun is, and was when I dragged, figuring out what works today and then figuring it out again tomorrow. The point is, if you are only getting a couple thousands or ten-thousands, or even only a hundredth or two difference, I would be very happy knowing my car was very consistant. Off my soapbox now.
Cheers everyone.
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Mr. Slick
Head in the Pine
www.PwdRacing.com
Posts: 151
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Post by Mr. Slick on May 11, 2006 11:36:54 GMT -6
I have over 900 cars on the same track over the last few months. Anyone want to see if there is a thing about track variance versus car variance? The average range (Max-min) for the cars was .150 seconds. The minimun range was .014 The average variance for a time for any lane from the average time for a car was .04 seconds Lots of cars - had to cut some off and removed all spaces. 9.999 format spaces eliminated for max message length. A.AAAB.BBBC.CCCD.DDDE.EEEF.FFF 4.3754.3694.4004.3874.3854.387 4.4254.4044.3744.4404.3834.456 4.4384.3894.3894.3834.5364.387 4.3904.6644.4364.4344.4364.445 4.4304.4054.3944.4404.4724.516 4.4094.4354.4314.3954.4204.411 4.4024.4004.4074.4044.4344.396 4.4294.4344.4354.3974.4304.446 4.4254.4204.4354.4264.3994.413 4.4404.4434.4274.3994.4144.439 4.4944.4014.5094.5164.4544.573 4.4274.5154.5044.4024.4634.495 4.4274.4244.4384.4064.4294.463 4.4214.4094.4114.4064.4214.426 4.4094.4444.4564.5094.4604.423 4.4624.4194.4944.4854.4104.449 4.4894.4164.4244.4734.4544.441 4.4594.4554.4604.4654.4454.418 4.4574.4214.4424.4294.4984.476 4.4224.4294.4324.4454.4234.451 4.4494.4524.4314.4224.4244.426 4.4674.4464.4944.4454.4264.472 4.4604.4334.4314.4464.4304.478 4.5064.4314.5024.4664.4364.483 4.4324.4724.4774.4644.4374.501 4.4334.4824.4694.4574.4334.432 4.4554.4684.4634.4844.4324.475 4.5644.4344.4864.4924.4714.467 4.4674.4704.4724.4734.4344.461 4.4894.4634.4644.4344.4834.503 4.4554.4814.4774.4554.4364.509 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4.4924.4684.4964.4754.4694.493 4.4904.4934.4814.4684.5064.503 4.4814.4844.5174.4694.4914.511 4.4824.4704.5034.4814.5174.496 4.4914.4734.4924.4714.5654.483 4.5634.4714.4754.5134.5294.546 4.7294.7054.4974.5454.4714.600 4.5044.4924.4974.4714.4794.476 4.8204.4954.6454.4724.5274.664 4.5184.5024.4764.4744.5224.473 4.4914.5184.5444.4754.5354.481 4.4764.4814.4874.5114.5254.541 4.5244.4964.5054.4774.5664.533 4.5234.5654.5534.4794.5434.592 4.5664.5284.5324.5634.4794.560 4.5204.5034.4804.5044.5134.539 4.5064.4824.4804.5364.5024.519 4.5144.5544.4804.4814.5094.548 4.4954.5244.4944.4944.4804.526 4.4924.5074.4854.4814.5464.525 4.5064.5124.5054.5024.5064.484 4.6234.4854.5174.5164.4854.562 4.4884.4934.5064.4904.4944.504 4.6724.7974.4884.7534.7464.796 4.6544.4884.6094.5964.6574.714 4.6324.5544.4884.5604.5884.682 4.4904.4954.5174.5104.4904.498 4.6194.5074.4904.5594.5374.576 4.5694.5724.5164.5884.4904.562 4.5314.4904.5624.5034.5054.522 4.5304.4904.5084.5184.5424.554 4.5074.4914.5104.4954.5084.522 4.5624.4924.4954.5104.5134.524 4.5004.5154.5084.6194.4924.576 4.4934.5224.5164.5534.5034.496 4.4974.5244.4934.5204.5164.531 4.5564.4934.5344.5294.5454.607 4.4934.5004.5304.5074.5304.560 4.5034.5194.5264.5074.4994.494 4.5294.5434.5084.4944.5234.570 4.4954.5014.5574.5454.7484.702 4.5284.5084.5314.5294.4964.531 4.6414.5154.5364.5444.4974.547 4.5124.4974.4984.5134.5224.526 4.5194.5904.5704.5584.4984.534 4.5254.5164.5184.5004.5384.524 4.5294.5154.5164.5214.5224.501 4.5204.5144.5304.5024.5164.571 4.6444.5514.6234.6534.5034.556 4.5044.5244.5154.5394.5124.534 4.5694.5364.5464.5044.5214.505 4.5284.5354.5044.5374.5044.517 4.5044.5544.5524.5564.5844.542 4.5914.5474.5874.5744.5054.560 4.5134.5064.5194.5124.5054.510 4.5064.5264.5464.5214.5464.537 4.6034.5584.5694.5944.5064.603 4.5634.5704.5834.5234.5064.564 4.5084.5314.5124.5534.5284.507 4.5114.5184.5074.5434.5664.536 4.5514.5134.5334.5074.5514.558 4.5184.5084.5284.5384.5454.532 4.5234.5254.5144.5084.5324.526 4.5454.5364.5864.5094.5974.599 4.5754.5764.5604.5614.5094.541 4.5314.5224.5114.5934.5294.510 4.5564.5574.6074.5744.5124.595 4.5744.5694.6024.5684.5854.512 4.5424.5134.5644.5774.5934.593 4.5964.5484.5134.5444.5584.574 4.6354.5804.5764.5144.5634.575 4.5674.5364.5674.5614.5144.543 4.5234.5374.5154.5204.5324.529 4.5334.5284.6024.5874.5854.520 4.5894.5244.5344.5604.5224.598 4.5484.5234.5444.5544.5714.582 4.5234.6064.5764.5374.5874.547 4.5604.5254.5414.5474.5444.570 4.5994.6444.5254.6874.6224.614 4.5264.5784.5854.5794.5334.557 4.5644.5884.5874.5264.5774.591 4.5574.5534.5944.5284.8724.784 4.6814.5584.5384.5794.5534.528 4.5434.5534.5574.5404.5294.553 4.5964.6184.5304.5664.5614.604 4.5694.5624.5714.5624.5304.563 4.5834.5304.5724.5814.5584.646 4.5334.5464.5424.5424.6394.560 4.6224.5444.6124.5574.5334.628 4.5334.5544.5514.5684.5434.584 4.5564.5414.5454.5334.5444.533 4.5644.5334.5414.5424.5804.636 4.5354.5654.5554.6124.5594.534 4.6254.5984.5344.5894.6114.562 4.5904.5714.5364.6154.5574.590 4.5454.5624.5594.5364.5424.565 4.5714.5484.5604.5474.5364.579 4.5364.6174.6754.6064.6194.693 4.5504.5524.5524.5374.5464.566 4.5464.5714.5544.5394.5524.648 4.5934.5934.6034.6114.5514.539 4.5404.7144.6374.6554.5974.596 4.5644.5404.5824.6664.5924.626 4.5404.5764.5954.6064.5874.614 4.5694.5744.5494.5624.5494.541 4.7724.5414.8114.5424.5644.819 4.6604.5774.5734.5484.5434.627 4.5444.5544.5714.5544.5434.562 4.6314.6004.5544.6984.5804.543 4.8894.9124.9254.8434.5434.978 4.5464.5674.5584.6054.6654.670 4.5764.5554.5834.5984.5634.547 4.5474.6024.6624.8444.7384.815 4.6684.6394.7254.5484.6374.629 4.5494.6014.5644.5594.5864.603 4.6164.5904.5874.6164.5494.625 4.7554.7384.7454.7204.5504.779 4.5854.5724.5934.5854.5504.622 4.5994.5504.5584.5964.5884.639 4.5964.5944.6034.6224.5514.631 4.5674.5574.6124.5564.5514.593 4.5524.5564.5514.5804.5974.596 4.5724.5794.6184.5524.5524.578 4.6264.6144.5924.5974.5524.587 4.5674.6124.5534.5944.6084.678 4.6104.5614.6304.5534.5984.631 4.5544.5594.5644.5784.5714.565 4.6004.5574.5994.5554.5684.559 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4.6214.5994.5704.6124.5714.592 4.7774.5704.6334.6814.5904.646 4.6484.6244.6264.5714.5804.604 4.7424.7054.7384.5714.6734.724 4.5734.5714.6114.6064.5874.650 4.6204.6214.5714.5844.5814.607 4.7294.6154.6694.7464.5724.660 4.5784.5984.5724.5804.5974.642 4.5724.6614.6424.6594.6684.770 4.6394.6134.5824.6214.5734.589 4.5734.5844.6124.6054.6144.650 4.5734.6104.6204.6394.6254.623 4.5954.5734.5944.6414.5994.615 4.6284.6074.6704.6064.5744.625 4.5854.5844.5934.5744.6304.591 4.6474.5744.6074.6144.6384.591 4.6204.5754.6384.5864.5764.590 4.5774.5764.5844.5804.6244.620 4.7394.7734.6144.5774.6234.709 4.5774.5974.6004.5844.6304.611 4.6204.7194.7404.7394.6054.578 4.6024.6084.5894.6214.5784.628 4.6754.6194.6734.6044.5784.679 4.6444.6104.5784.6154.6264.627 4.6124.5784.6654.5914.6124.595 4.6964.6354.5784.6324.6514.709 4.7464.6534.6684.6804.5794.668 4.6134.6064.6294.5804.6064.621 4.5804.5824.5834.6354.5814.614 4.6444.6234.6044.5814.6174.633 4.6104.5814.6114.6054.6194.626 4.5934.6434.5934.6294.6154.582 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4.8775.0505.0634.9825.0694.886 4.9064.8854.8784.8924.9114.962 4.9145.0034.9534.9634.8794.947 4.9574.9804.9054.9094.8914.881 5.0054.9164.9144.9684.8825.067 4.8954.9944.8994.8854.9124.976 4.9694.8865.0665.0095.1064.996 4.9944.9205.0174.8884.9104.973 4.8924.9604.8964.9174.8894.911 5.0574.9594.8904.9504.9295.179 4.8915.0785.0465.0055.0604.894 4.8914.9424.9564.9634.9374.953 4.9274.8924.9224.9464.9154.922 4.8934.8954.9234.9224.9504.927 5.1875.0774.9915.1584.8945.244 4.8964.9234.9104.9584.9575.059 4.8964.9704.9444.9744.9864.958 4.9504.9064.9304.8975.0295.097 5.2024.8995.0904.9664.9715.263 5.0045.0235.0865.0354.9054.938 5.1095.0615.0844.9054.9945.257 4.9244.9224.9254.9464.9054.972 5.0304.9884.9574.9784.9064.953 5.0724.9804.9084.9334.9855.088 4.9544.9654.9174.9544.9084.977 4.9374.9674.9764.9085.0695.067 4.9994.9504.9634.9104.9535.042 5.1085.1675.0524.9804.9135.155 4.9754.9134.9444.9204.9255.024 5.0155.0194.9754.9164.9784.933 4.9615.1005.0264.9634.9784.918 5.1224.9985.0524.9444.9224.933 5.2005.0824.9255.0914.9704.947 4.9264.9544.9334.9804.9585.037 5.1545.0904.9924.9814.9274.974 4.9355.0434.9845.1125.0055.058 5.1995.0264.9364.9725.0414.974 5.1385.1365.0224.9385.0885.250 5.1034.9415.0435.0534.9764.995 4.9524.9435.0984.9884.9834.950 5.0175.0044.9644.9444.9925.186 4.9984.9514.9654.9704.9465.041 5.0225.0244.9744.9465.0105.011 5.0125.0234.9984.9495.0515.120 5.1084.9934.9544.9775.0164.959 5.2034.9565.0055.0164.9825.139 5.0274.9565.0545.0475.0515.150 5.0524.9685.1544.9595.1725.101 5.2125.2324.9595.1995.1925.214 5.2165.1515.0825.0334.9605.160 5.0505.0844.9624.9815.0705.096 4.9865.0744.9844.9715.0015.116 4.9785.1855.2115.1815.2435.402 4.9795.0985.0135.1635.0804.999 5.2095.0604.9825.0765.0335.085 5.0324.9895.0905.0925.0165.167 5.1165.1005.0654.9915.0585.094 5.0905.1345.0265.1164.9935.129 5.1045.0305.1154.9995.0885.105 5.0205.0005.0205.0775.0645.296 5.2805.0075.1025.0465.0755.230 5.0995.0085.0285.0265.1345.139 5.3355.2765.2265.3465.0115.429 5.0765.1025.0895.1095.0175.205 5.0245.0435.1445.0965.0965.057 5.0285.0285.1765.0855.2435.062 5.1065.0315.0525.0595.0285.039 5.1405.0305.0565.1025.2045.205 5.1325.1205.0315.0595.1465.217 5.2415.1445.1425.1265.0335.256 5.0535.0655.3085.0355.1925.154 5.2665.1665.0365.1265.0385.284 5.2985.2165.2935.2295.0405.312 5.0515.0475.0765.0425.1245.092 5.3835.0855.2975.0445.1485.215 5.1865.1685.2105.0505.0755.269 5.1795.0795.0505.1055.0775.118 5.4015.1045.2505.0505.1165.164 5.1795.1775.3215.0775.0555.229 5.3005.3055.2615.2055.0565.064 5.1035.0565.1165.0785.1675.196 5.3715.5065.4225.0615.3845.250 5.0715.0825.0735.0895.0615.174 5.1215.2265.3105.0695.2155.105 5.1835.1095.1125.1295.1465.074 5.3145.1815.0785.0805.0845.243 5.1975.0855.1055.1015.1635.136 5.2285.0965.1115.1735.1045.247 5.2895.1165.0975.1545.1985.347 5.2825.1525.1205.1615.1855.348 5.1485.1865.1275.2805.1225.287 5.2485.1975.1645.2055.1255.330 5.1675.1545.1455.1265.1495.179 5.1465.2305.1845.1265.1335.167 5.2255.1775.2005.1585.1265.220 5.3195.1745.2285.2705.2055.135 5.2775.2055.1495.2155.1415.388 5.1595.1425.2045.1985.3065.195 5.3275.3185.1995.1455.2445.457 5.2335.2275.1505.3115.1795.413 5.4585.5355.3995.6185.1515.448 5.4045.2025.2015.3235.1555.278 5.3955.1585.1805.1755.2625.440
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greenhorn
Head in the Pine
I feel the need, the need, for SPEED!!!
Posts: 132
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Post by greenhorn on May 11, 2006 13:43:01 GMT -6
Sorry, I guess I don't understand the point of all the numbers. You mention ranges and variances that are a small fraction of a second. My first glance shows over a full second between the first and last times. Are these 900 different cars or 900 runs of the same car. A lot of numbers, but I guess I don't know what it's all about. I don't know about this car vs track variances. What I pointed out was that it can all compound or even offset by different degrees.
My point is that whatever times someone gets with their car at home doesn't really mean much with what it does at WIRL. I would be surprised by any identical average race times between them. If they're close, then I'd say you probably have a pretty well built car as seen by its consistancy. There's always going to be differences, I wouldn't suggest anything that would diminish WIRL for those differences. Or perhaps I've totally misunderstood all along.
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Post by patmanruls on May 11, 2006 16:12:54 GMT -6
Okay guys, it's time I spill my guts. I've been racing in WIRL since January of '05. I have enjoyed the competition, the friendships, and the relationships I have now as a result of my participation. My intentions all along have been to act in such a manner that I can help to promote the sport, keep all things fair, and apply the knowledge I pick up from you guys to help the kids that I work with here in my community. Now that I've stated all of that, I will move on.
I expect this may take some by surprise, others may already know, and most probably will not care.
Relationships between builders goes on. It's been going on, and it will continue to go on. People help out others, it's always been that way.
I have developed a relationship with Glenn and David Jewkes over the past 2 months. I was reluctant at first, but am glad now because our relationships have grown. My intentions were to see if their contentions had any weight. I will tell you that in the past two races, I'm scratching my head.
Trifection got it's name from the fact that three people touched that car. I cut it out, drilled out the holes and added a couple of coats of primer on the car. I shipped it to Glenn, who then added the weight, his Edge stocker wheels and his axles. He tested it and got it running great. The car then went you his brother David who put the awesome paint job on it. It's truly a work of art, and the finish is as good as I've seen. Derbymaster's (Kevin) work is the only that I've seen that could compare. Anyway, Glenn got it running super and we paid big bucks to get it to WIRL for the March race. After seeing it run 3.10's, I was sick. I found out later that the car had maximized the width in the rear, and in order to fit the box, the wheels and axles had to be pressed in.... shooting it in the foot. For the March race, I had also sent Money Pit to Derbymaster to have him tune it. He got it running .05 faster then February's time, and it was screaming.
In order to help Glenn and David determine the delta in the times between their track and WIRL's track, I sent Money Pit, along with Trifection, back to Glenn when I got them back from March's race. Video's were posted last month with what was determined. There is video showing Money Pits time within .01 of what it ran at WIRL.
Now, having an extra week to work on cars, Glenn was able to get Trifection legal (via a newly purchased go-no-go box from MAX V) again and along with Money Pit, there is video on the boards showing them tying with 3.009's. So that meant that Money Pit was sped up from 3.06's to 3.009's, and Trifection was where it needed to be and it was running 3.009's on Glenn's track.
You are familiar with how anxious I was to see how they were going to run at WIRL. You saw the red soda water wagers and all. I knew that Money Pit was sped up from what it had run at WIRL about .05 from March, and Trifection was side by side with it....
Then came race night. We're all hovering around the boards waiting on the results..... and then the glitch happened, and the cars have to be re-run and results will have to wait until Saturday..... bummer... but I was still pumped. Saturday came with results.... Money Pit avg 3.08, and Trifection was 3.04....... Picture me with an upset stomach scratching my head... Money Pit was sped up .06 from March, should have been running low 3's and comes back with 3.08's...
Hence my recent silence. I've been lurking on the boards, but haven't posted, except when I saw the dinosaur. I have relationships with many of you outside of these boards, and I cherish that.
I realize that the only true way to have peace is to get the cars back where they need to be, pack them up, and show up in Atlanta.... then I would be satisfied with whatever the outcome is, good or bad. But that will probably not happen. Too many other commitments.
I'm going to take a break. This isn't much fun for me anymore, and stay busy in other ventures. Before I go, I'd like to express a few "thank you's" to the public
I'd like to thank Glenn and David for your diligence in working together thus far. You guys do have skills, don't let anybody tell you differently.
I'd like to thank Mike Parrish for his friendship and ear when I needed it. And coming through with some wheels for Molly's car.
I'd like to thank Joker for his input, his awesome graphics and enthusiasm
I'd like to thank Jim for all his hard work with the points, and the ear from time to time.
I'd like to thank Kevin (Derbymaster) who is an awesome builder, a stand up guy, and a great role model in the sport. He was instrumental in painting Molly's car that was a gift for Smokin' Joes daughter. When asked if he'd help, he didn't hesitate to give me the "heck ya".
I'd like to thank Fred Wheeler for his knowledge and insight. Although he doesn't approve of my methods, I can say Fred is one of the true Pinewood Derby builders builder. His innovations to the modified class is ingenious. I'm sad we don't speak anymore, so I wish you continued success. Fred, I still love you man.
Larry Reed is a saint. His love for the sport is only overshadowed by the size of the mans heart. I pray that I can have a heart like his some day
Barga is equally remarkable in his workmanship. Keep up the good work and I hope your shipping efforts get better.
Dan (D&M), you just keep building those winning cars brother. Thanks for your generous heart with sharing your trophies from last years haul in Lima.
Smokin'- I'm thankful for the joyfulness of your heart and soul. Your wit is amazing and I hope you can rub off more on all of us.
Mood, I'm praying for Alexander and am hopeful you'll send in a car one day.
Chip.. you keep fending off the Physics teachers cars now. You've got your work cut out for you with Warp and 234 now.
Panzer, You are a true innovator in your own right. I wish you would come back... Would love to see Geppard with a tune up
Loree, you keep building those beautiful masterpieces, you are a true talent and inspiration
Phil, you keep making them faster and faster.... and let us know what your buddy's idea of "out of the box" really means.
Wart, I hope you can get back on track to start contending for number one really soon.
234, Thanks for coming on board and showing the new guys that anybody can compete. Most of the guys that want to race are fearul they won't do well. Look at your first race..
Warp, Thank you for your contributions to wheel technology and making those speed demons available to everyone. You could have easily kept that little secret to yourself. Hope you have a great baseball season too
Bill (DerbyWorx).. Thanks to you for all of your nifty tools that have helped many a dad and child alike to help make better and faster cars. Inadvertantly, I'm sure you reduced the amount of injuries us dads could have had with a drill or dremel. My insurance carrier thanks you.
Randy Davis.. Thanks to you for your website. When I first got started, you were the one I went to for all my stuff, and still do today. thanks again.
Steve and Jennifer, Thanks for the venue that allows us all to test our skills against one another. Alot of sacrifice on your part is appreciated by all.
Forrest Fogle is a hard working man putting out those wheels and axles.. Thanks Forrest
And Frank Peede, we've missed you.
Speedbuggy.. we've missed you.
Thanks to all of the new racers... invite others...
If I missed anybody, I apologize. Just race, and have fun doing it.
Well, this was my "Jerry McGuire". You guys take it easy, good racing and fellowship to you all. It is with a heavy heart that I bid farewell for now. Just too many things going on these days.
So Long.
Patrick Emerson Emerson Fast Cars
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Post by JOKER on May 11, 2006 16:45:58 GMT -6
I'm going to take a break. So Long. Patrick Emerson Emerson Fast Cars HEY BRO,........WHATEVER YOU DECIDE TO DO,......I'M IN YOUR CORNER.
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Post by slkrnsntracing on May 11, 2006 18:52:05 GMT -6
I expect this may take some by surprise, others may already know, and most probably will not care. I'm going to take a break. Patrick Emerson Emerson Fast Cars Pat, This does come as a surprise to me. I know you had high hopes for April, and that the results were not what you wanted. I was rooting for you too. I do care. If I am in any way a part of the problem, I apologize. Let me know what I can do. Thanks for all the prayers for my family, I know you truly care. Hopefully you will return soon. I'll miss you. Phil
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Mr. Slick
Head in the Pine
www.PwdRacing.com
Posts: 151
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Post by Mr. Slick on May 11, 2006 20:30:37 GMT -6
I'll miss you. What the number show: The outer lanes are new and have different mean times from the middle four. The mean for the 807 cars listed in the middle four lanes was: 4.727 Average variance for each lane from the mean for each car: B: 0.002 C: -0.005 D: 0.000 E: 0.003 That is very close for lane to lane variation over 800 cars. Aluminum tracks are very stable over time, this is 32 pieces of track set up over 20 times and the cars are very repeatable from lane to lane based on their averages. What is really amazing is that I can identify cars from the pack level and the large group races and they are soooo close that if they are more than .02 different I usually ask the people if they did something to the car between the races. Virtually all of them have "done something" that could have caused a the difference. I will have to state: Pinewood Derby Cars don't change very much unless external forces change them. My personal track test cars race the same times setup after setup, year after year, unless I attempt to improve the times. . .
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Post by builderjim on May 12, 2006 0:07:00 GMT -6
A sad day has fallen upon us. Mr. Emerson, I truely believe that when all is said and done, the will be an Emerson Fast Cars one day. I respect you in that you were able to lay it all out on the table. Friendships are made thru these little wood cars and that should not ever be compromised for the "Competition of the Race". I will not miss you because i will keep a positive outlook and look forward to seeing you run again. I thank you for the laughter and friendship and the open ear. Keep your great faith you have with you always. Jim
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greenhorn
Head in the Pine
I feel the need, the need, for SPEED!!!
Posts: 132
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Post by greenhorn on May 12, 2006 5:31:07 GMT -6
Emerson,
You will truly be missed. I hope you return very soon and that I didn't cause you to not have as much fun.
Mr. Slick, Forgive me, but I deal with numbers a lot. It's part of my job. I'm fascinated that you've experience the kind of consistancy with so many different cars that are built by different people. And I'm just trying to understand. If I read right, are you saying the variances are by car on your track? Not all cars from all builders all run within thousands or .02 of each other? In our pack we always have a car or two that have trouble making it to finish line (and usually win the "Most Fuel Efficient" trophy). So do I understand correctly that the variances you mention are per car and not all cars together?
Another question, is the track set up at the same location and placement each time, or different locations? If different locations, are the same cars running within the times of the other locations? Or are they different cars and the time variances per car at that particular race?
What I'm getting at is that given all the possible variables, how consistant the cars can be. But I think what you're saying is that the small deviations are per car and/or per race, not all cars together put with all races at all locations. Or have I now totally confused myself and everyone else?
I'm just trying to understand the possible variances or consistancy. My son and I are fairly new so the only base line we have (we don't have a track at all to test on) is past experience with other sports/hobbies like drag racing or whatever. I would expect variances from track to track, and even from race to race with the same car depending on conditions. I just don't know how much can be expected and what would be reasonable. I didn't mean to offend anyone, I'm just trying to understand.
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Mr. Slick
Head in the Pine
www.PwdRacing.com
Posts: 151
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Post by Mr. Slick on May 12, 2006 9:43:19 GMT -6
First, the track. . . then I will ramble, it's Friday! The track is set up for different groups and at different locations. I get "lucky" a couple of times if I get two groups to have races same day, same location since I don't have to do 2 setup/take downs. This year that happened 3 times. So, the races are from 25 races, with 22 different setup/take downs. We use a laser level to adjust the track to be straight in order to achieve the repeatability that we have gotten. The small variance is the variance from the average for each car for each race. Take the mean for the inner 4 lanes to get the car's average. Then I took the average minus the time for each of the lanes. This results in a distance from the average for each car for each lane. Some cars seem to go high while some cars go low on the various lanes. If you sum the distance from the averages for the cars and divide by the number of cars you should get a small number IF the race environment is not a factor. something about fairness and it should all equal zero in a perfect system. . . For individual cars: One measure that I look at is what could be a "Bad Run" - something far away from the average? These are the number of cars that had the MAXIMUM distance from average of: 135 cars <= .02 275 cars <= .03 400 cars <= .04 515 cars <= .05 675 cars < .075 753 cars < .1 seconds. So can I state that the variance of a car is greater then the effect of the track. These are kid built cars, not finely crafted adult cars. When I have cars from the same person for multiple races, (one was at four races, Pack, District, Family division at Girl Scout, Church group) I like to compare the times. I ask if they "tuned" the car and if they expected the times to improve. I have GPRM and hand out the individual car stats after each race so the people get to have a record of their times from each of the races. The kids love it because they can compare between their own friends and from race to race. The track has a LONG run out - 58' from start pin to finish sensor. The times are in the range of 1.5 times as long as the WIRL times so imagine the differences being decreased due to a shorter run. About 14' drop and 44' of "flat" where there is 2" slope per section(93"). The fact that the two Best-Tracks are the same means that the times should always be the same between them or always different. The MAXIMUM distance from average times for 907 cars can be characterized by: Average 0.065 Maximum 0.431 Minimum 0.004 Std-Dev 0.061 Tracks should not be a factor in times. The outer 2 lanes were new track at the beginning of the season and I adjusted their alignment part way through the season to eliminate some curve that had crept in. I am have built a brand new frame with all new aluminum for this next season. . . can't wait to see the differences. check out - www.PWDRacing.com - my new website for some specific reults. I will get the entire season set posted this weekend. . . I hope.
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Post by Mood Swing Productions on May 12, 2006 9:56:10 GMT -6
You all have done a great job in showing variance in track speed, however no one has yet to address the issue. 1. exact same set up and proportions = different times 2. how a car can suddenly slow down because of postal delivery to and from a particular location
okay lets go on this premis:
2fast's track is faster the WIRL track. so that means 2fast's track will record faster times, correct?
YES. i think we, including 2fast can accept that.
NOW let us add the FINAL point that 2fast mentioned, which none have you have actually addressed.
for this i will make up numbers, but i will stay consistent: On track A <the car runs> 100 miles and hour. On track B <the car runs> 90 miles and hour. we already agreed A is FASTER then B. now that same car LEAVES track B and goes "home" to its A "home track"and suddenly instead of running 100 miles an hour is slower.
this is how i read all of 2fast's posts to be.
i am not calling names, i am not taking sides, i am trying to understand things more clearly.
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Post by Down-N-Flames on May 12, 2006 10:54:01 GMT -6
Well I get the feeling his complaint is not with the postal service. But as to cars running different times on the "same track" in a different locations, I guess I would like to see a test where the car is run, then changed to a different kind of day (rain snow heat,whatever) and then run again. My guess is that the times will change. I have a feeling the two times being that close on two different tracks is more of a fluck than hard evidence.
I'm sorry to see Phil leave and I really hope it is because of other commitments. I haven't been around long but I hate to see any one leave with what I think is a bad taste in his mouth.
Woody
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Post by slkrnsntracing on May 12, 2006 11:21:30 GMT -6
I'm sorry to see Phil leave and I really hope it is because of other commitments. I haven't been around long but I hate to see any one leave with what I think is a bad taste in his mouth. Woody Wait a minute Woody, I'm not going anywhere. I enjoy this too much to leave. Hopefully Pat will not be gone long either. To me he has always represented what WIRL is all about. Good Luck to everybody this month Phil
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Post by Mood Swing Productions on May 12, 2006 12:05:16 GMT -6
okay you tooo have missed my point. i did NOT say it was a postal delivery. re read the post.
ill re state it
1. Emersons track does 100 mph car gets sent to race 2. WIRL track does 90 car gets sent home after race 3. Emersons track now does 90
now how does the same car slow down on his OWN TRACK slowing down on WIRL track he can accept. slowing down on his own track after the race is his problem.
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Post by Down-N-Flames on May 12, 2006 12:34:55 GMT -6
I see your point, I think there is a question of whether something was done to the car NOT because of the mail. That would explain it.
My point on the two tracks, you will hardly ever get the same aveage time on two different days even on the same track.
One thing I will give PAT (sorry Phil) is something that is frustrating when it is supposed to be fun can lead you to leave it alone for a while. My hope is that is the path he will take and come back.
As far as you Phil, I hope you aren't "screwing up" any of your other cars this month, I already am behind and working on a different car than my mod. Hope the quick relube and sending will increase the speed again this month (ha ha)
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Post by A1nogoslo on May 12, 2006 12:43:56 GMT -6
okay you tooo have missed my point. i did NOT say it was a postal delivery. re read the post. ill re state it 1. Emersons track does 100 mph car gets sent to race 2. WIRL track does 90 car gets sent home after race 3. Emersons track now does 90 now how does the same car slow down on his OWN TRACK slowing down on WIRL track he can accept. slowing down on his own track after the race is his problem. Ok Mood I think its not to hard to understand and it looks like to me you caught on .... I going to add to yours.... Now how can a car run on track B and then come back and run the same times on track A as it did on track B, (now that looks like the tracks can run the same times) but when the car runs .04-.05 faster on Track A and then goes to Track B and does not run at least a few 1000th's different not .04-.05's different. So it looks like Track A and track B can produce the same times within 1000th's and even 10,000th's not a huge .04-.05's... That don't even explain the huge wide inconsistent times on top of the .04-.05 difference in times.. Look at the last video of Cold Fusion it runs 7 runs in a row with an average of 3.0034 average. then runs 6 more and the total average is still 3.004 something with 13 runs...
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Post by A1nogoslo on May 12, 2006 12:58:55 GMT -6
My point on the two tracks, you will hardly ever get the same aveage time on two different days even on the same track. Down-N-Derby I don't know how long you have been playing with the derby thing but I will have to diagree with you on this subject.... We travel all over this state and have run countless Derby's and set the track up in many different places and if you set a car up and tune it properly the car will run consistent. We have setup taken down the track many many times and set it back up many times and the cars still run the same. We have even done testing with leaving a car for weeks without touching it and raced other Scout derby matches at other places and the same car still sitting there untouched weeks go bye and then we set the track back up and get the car and put it on the track and low-and-behold the car still runs the same times, time and time again. How could some of the cars at the WIRL races stay very consistent month after month but other cars that are very very consistent on there own track not run consistent on the same track and setup....
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