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Post by brian on Aug 31, 2006 17:12:47 GMT -6
First, allow me to thank the people who run this site. I've reading through dozens of postings for the past hour or so and I have to say I'm thoroughly impressed by the collective knowledge base around here. Very, very interesting.
By way of a brief introduction, I'm the father of a 7-year-old boy who was "badged" as Tiger Cub last spring and is about to enter into the Wolf stage. We will be participating in our second Pack-wide Pinewood Derby some time in February of '07.
Last winter we built one of the more creative cars in the entire competition, only we (I) screwed the pooch in the speed department by failing to do any advance research. In short, we took everything straight out of the kit, cut out a "cool-looking" shape, added a quality "high-impact" paint job, and then slapped on the wheels via the standard nail axels provided in the scout kit. Actually, "slapped on" is a bit of an exaggeration of the wheel/axel portion, but having read through so many informative posts in this community, it's crystal clear we (I) dropped the ball in preparing the axels, preparing the wheels, and (I'm convinced this was our biggest problem) inserting the wheels/axels into the car. Our weight was dead on at 5.0 oz yet we ended up getting smoked by a magic marker painted car that looked like it was carved with a pocket knife. Lesson learned.
Here are my questions........
1. Carving the car - I've seen references to Scroll Saws, Band Saws, and Dremmel Tools (among others) - Can these tools be rented at a place like Home Depot of United Rentals? Last year's car turned out great shape-wise, but it was a LOT of work carving everything by hand (used a standard wood saw and coping saw both of which left a lot to be desired in the accuracy department and took up a lot of time). Also, I do have a dremmel-like Black & Decker tool - Any special tips I should be using to help with the cutting and/or shaping?
2. Carving the front tip - If you were to carve the tip of the car so that it angled backwards and downwards (see: Snake's "cone" shape in the Wood thread), wouldn't that give the car a small but immediate jump on its flat-faced competitors? The starting pin falls forward, right?
3. Buying a block with pre-drilled holes - I intend to do this this coming year because last year's kit slots gave me fits and I don't own the type of saw needed to true up the stock slots. How accurate are these pre-drilled holes you can order online? I would think it would be much easier simply inserting the nail into an accurately drilled hole than messing around with an axel slot where you can easily screw up the depth and angle. Also, running on three wheels instead of four makes a rookie like me a bit uncomfortable for some reason. Is it really the way to go assuming everything is true and the weight is properly distributed?
4. Axels - Recommended vendors for notched nails. The aforementioned "pocketknife/magic marker" car had them and the lucky young boy ended up finishing in the top 5 out of a pool of roughly 90 entrants!
5. Wheels - I intend to upgrade these, too. Suggestions on the best molds would be appreciated as well as a vendor(s).
Thanks in advance for your valuable insights!
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Post by builderjim on Aug 31, 2006 17:27:27 GMT -6
Brian,
The one thing I would check would be the rules allowed by your organization. I would hate for you to purchase a kit, axles, or wheels for that matter if the rule clearly state that the Kit provided must be used. That is not to say you can't purchase mold match wheels that you and your cub prepare yourself.
I for one like the coping saw for the shapes that I come up with. You have to have a little patience with it and it will work for you. The dremel tools are great for removing material quickly but to make sure that your car is perfectly even I like a plain old rasp and file, of course you need lots of the various grade of sand paper going down to about 600 grit.
Other people should be along to help you with your speed tips.
Jim
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Post by parrish on Sept 1, 2006 5:45:47 GMT -6
...By way of a brief introduction, I'm the father of a 7-year-old boy who was "badged" as Tiger Cub last spring and is about to enter into the Wolf stage. We will be participating in our second Pack-wide Pinewood Derby some time in February of '07...Here are my questions........ Welcome Brian. As far as answers, I don't know about renting tools. You might check with the leaders to see if any workshops are scheduled. We hold 3 workshops before our Awana Grand Prix every year. We set-up the power tools and supervise and help kids with cutting the cars and assembling the wheels (we leave the painting up to them at home) 2. Carving the front tip - If you were to carve the tip of the car so that it angled backwards and downwards (see: Snake's "cone" shape in the Wood thread), wouldn't that give the car a small but immediate jump on its flat-faced competitors? The starting pin falls forward, right? If the start pins are pulled down by hand, some think that this is an advantage. I personally don't think there is much of an advantage (if any)when the pins are pulled down by spring tension. 3. Buying a block with pre-drilled holes...How accurate are these pre-drilled holes you can order online?... I a sure they are fairly accurate...but, you can drill your own holes with a tool called the Pro Body Tool (I will P.M. you a link to check it out). Also, running on three wheels instead of four makes a rookie like me a bit uncomfortable for some reason. Is it really the way to go assuming everything is true and the weight is properly distributed? By all means, run 3 wheels if your rules allow. If you weight in the rear of your car (fairly centered), you won't have any problems running a 3 wheeler. 4. Axels - Recommended vendors for notched nails. The aforementioned "pocketknife/magic marker" car had them and the lucky young boy ended up finishing in the top 5 out of a pool of roughly 90 entrants! Not a big fan of grooved axles. There may be some advantage to it if you are running graphite...not sure. Someone else will have to answer this one. 5. Wheels - I intend to upgrade these, too. Suggestions on the best molds would be appreciated as well as a vendor(s). Randy at Max V did a lot of work sorting mold numbers. There might be some info still out there on his site. Again, I will P.M. you some links to some vendor sites. You can also check out the Vendors section of this website T hanks in advance for your valuable insights! If you have specific questions, don't be afraid to p.m. or e-mail most anyone on the boards. They are a great bunch of people. |
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Post by RacerX on Sept 1, 2006 8:26:34 GMT -6
Brian, Welcon to the Derby Worx forum, we are glad to have you here and hope you bring some friends as well, If you dare! Hahaha. There is a ton of good info here and we hope you and your son's results are greatly improved by hanging around here. Mr. Parrish has answered a lot of your questions. In case you did not know, Mike is one of the top PWD builders in the country having won the July and August rounds of the WIRL series, so his advice, as well as others here is very creditable, now Mike personally is a different story!!! But seriously, we are glad you are and all new comers are here and this group is glad to provide REAL RACE PROVEN TIPS & TUNING INFO, not assumptions, guestimates or paper formulas and text book theories, what this pannel says WORKS ON THE TRACK AND WINS!!! One thing that I have always said is that to build a winner is that you must look at all of the features of the track, design and how the starting gate works which brings me to your question about the front of the cars design. IF it is a spring closed gate that is manually opened, a hi-nosed car is great for getting a advantage on the start. A good example of this is the car on the front page on our site www.Derbyworx.com. If the gate is spring open with a trip lever, then it is of no concern, keep it low, thin and minimal wood for the body. Good luck and let us know what we can do to help you and your son go FASTER!!! Race Fast Racer X |
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HyperDrive
Head in the Pine
Magnum Force
Posts: 243
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Post by HyperDrive on Sept 1, 2006 13:33:15 GMT -6
First, allow me to thank the people who run this site. I've reading through dozens of postings for the past hour or so and I have to say I'm thoroughly impressed by the collective knowledge base around here. Very, very interesting. By way of a brief introduction, I'm the father of a 7-year-old boy who was "badged" as Tiger Cub last spring and is about to enter into the Wolf stage. We will be participating in our second Pack-wide Pinewood Derby some time in February of '07. Last winter we built one of the more creative cars in the entire competition, only we (I) screwed the pooch in the speed department by failing to do any advance research. In short, we took everything straight out of the kit, cut out a "cool-looking" shape, added a quality "high-impact" paint job, and then slapped on the wheels via the standard nail axels provided in the scout kit. Actually, "slapped on" is a bit of an exaggeration of the wheel/axel portion, but having read through so many informative posts in this community, it's crystal clear we (I) dropped the ball in preparing the axels, preparing the wheels, and (I'm convinced this was our biggest problem) inserting the wheels/axels into the car. Our weight was dead on at 5.0 oz yet we ended up getting smoked by a magic marker painted car that looked like it was carved with a pocket knife. Lesson learned. Here are my questions........ 1. Carving the car - I've seen references to Scroll Saws, Band Saws, and Dremmel Tools (among others) - Can these tools be rented at a place like Home Depot of United Rentals? Last year's car turned out great shape-wise, but it was a LOT of work carving everything by hand (used a standard wood saw and coping saw both of which left a lot to be desired in the accuracy department and took up a lot of time). Also, I do have a dremmel-like Black & Decker tool - Any special tips I should be using to help with the cutting and/or shaping? 2. Carving the front tip - If you were to carve the tip of the car so that it angled backwards and downwards (see: Snake's "cone" shape in the Wood thread), wouldn't that give the car a small but immediate jump on its flat-faced competitors? The starting pin falls forward, right? 3. Buying a block with pre-drilled holes - I intend to do this this coming year because last year's kit slots gave me fits and I don't own the type of saw needed to true up the stock slots. How accurate are these pre-drilled holes you can order online? I would think it would be much easier simply inserting the nail into an accurately drilled hole than messing around with an axel slot where you can easily screw up the depth and angle. Also, running on three wheels instead of four makes a rookie like me a bit uncomfortable for some reason. Is it really the way to go assuming everything is true and the weight is properly distributed? 4. Axels - Recommended vendors for notched nails. The aforementioned "pocketknife/magic marker" car had them and the lucky young boy ended up finishing in the top 5 out of a pool of roughly 90 entrants! 5. Wheels - I intend to upgrade these, too. Suggestions on the best molds would be appreciated as well as a vendor(s). Thanks in advance for your valuable insights! Brian, This my first year in the sport starting with my son being a tiger cub last spring and is now a wolf. I'll give you some tips about construction. I carved our first car out with a rotary tool and sand paper. It turned out pretty good but would never make a car like that again. Since then I have bought a scroll saw which wasn't too bad but it couldn't cut very much thickness wise very well. So I returned it and bought a band saw and now don't know what I would do without it. I also use a drill press for various drilling and even some cutting using a spiral drill bit like that used in dremel tools. The drill press is also a must to turn axles for grinding off burrs and sanding/polishing. The axles out of the BSA kit are NEVER, LET ME REPEAT NEVER..... straight, you need the pro axle press like I received from maximumvelocity.com to straighten these or if your rules allow you can just buy axles online from one of the many vendors that are already straight. Wheels... you can buy them online preturned for you or buy the pro wheel shaver XT from one of many vendors to start. If you get really serious into building cars and want to try and make them go faster and faster then you'll probably need to buy a mini lathe like I'm going to in order to turn your own wheels and make them true and light but check your BSA rules on this. If you get into WIRL racing then you'll have to lighten your wheels or buy them from someone or you'll never be competitive. Weights...Forget about zinc, it may be what all the hobby stores sell with their derby kits but it takes up a lot of space in your car and is not dense enough. As a minimum, use lead, it is a decent material for weighting and doesn't cost much. Just buy lead fishing weights in various sizes or melt it into drilled out cavities you create. But, if your serious about weighting properly buy tungsten. Several vendors sell 1/4" cubes and 3/8" cylinders. You do pay for it but it takes up only about 2/3 the space that lead would because it's more dense. I have found tungsten fishing weights from places like bass pro shops and d.i.c.k.'s sporting goods that are cheaper to purchase and work well. Last, you need a SCALE, the only way you can keep up with how much the car body weighs, wheels and axles weigh and how much lead or tungsten weight you need to add. Good luck |
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Post by Down-N-Flames on Sept 1, 2006 20:13:57 GMT -6
Don't forget that Barry with HyperDrive started with nothing and won, you don't have to buy too much to get started, pay attention to the details and prepping the axles is important and easy. I cut a car with a jig saw just to see if I could, and it is one of my favorite cars.
The biggest advise I can give is run the car down a table or something and adjust the axles to go pretty much straight, weigh all you can and make sure your son is involved. Make sure sure it is his paint color and basically his design. You will find no matter how good it is, the best car is his, if he is a part of it, no matter how many tools you have.
WIRL/PDDR are great, but remember that you are racing other parent/son teams and the guys on here are more than willing to help, but racing them is the best in the country.
Oh yeah , these guys are good and will help, but be careful of the Pinewood Derby Bug, it tends to cost money and consume a lot of your time (but it is a lot of fun.....)
Woody
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